Midships cleat for mooring... or not?

[MagicalArmchair]

A chap pulled effortlessly into the lock behind me over the weekend using his midships cleat to quickly pin the boat to the pontoon before casually making off the bow and stern lines. In a bid to try this approach to put single handed mooring into my toolchest of skills, I want to fit either midships cleats, or, alternatively I could run the Jib sheet car right forwards, and run a line from that to the pontoon.

The yellow below (in a photo from said weekends outing) is where I propose to put the cleats, the red is sort of where the jib sheet cars most forward position is. Do you think the position of the new cleats is about right? Or too far forward? Or should I not bother making more holes and things to trip over and just run a line through my jib car temporarily when mooring up (which I suspect is too far inboard)?

 

[boatingdave]

I can't see your picture but on a previous fly bridge motor boat (without girly buttons) I used to often go out single crewed using the centre cleat. Now with bow and stern thrusters I suspect I'm losing that particular skill and the girly buttons will wear out. Once you have the centre cleat all the pressure is off as you are 'attached' to give you the time to secure bow/stern. Definately an advocate of the centre cleat although on some vessels they are not as sturdy as their fore and aft counterparts .

 

[Tranona]

Either position would work - but why not fit Barton cleats to the track? You might find your track a bit too far inboard, but at least you could experiment and if necessary fit permanent cleats later.

 

[ex-Gladys]

Absolutely use a centre cleat!!! A bow line in a berth is something you use after the boat is stopped and you're securing it. Looking at your pics, I think you may be going slightly too far forward with the midships cleat. It needs to be just behind the widest part of the boat. What happens when you secure around one in that position is the engine pushing against it ( maybe with a bit of helm one way or t'other to taste to keep things in line). If you ever use locks, you may find that you use a midline, and engine, maybe backed up with a boathook further aft.

 

[villager]

I had a Ballad that I fitted cleats to approx in the position you have shown. They worked a treat for mooring but some times would snag the jib sheets. If I fitted them again I would use a folding cleat or position them inside the shrouds

 

[sarabande]

go for a cleat at the point of max beam. Gives you most leverage ahead or astern with the appropriate short springs, using a fender to the cleat as a pivot point. No strain on stanchions or on shrouds.

Out by the toe rail it's also out of the way of feet and toes .

 

[Concerto]

Mark

Have a look at my boat and how it is moored, you might find it very useful. You should have popped over when I spoke to you a couple of weeks ago and you would have seen then.

 

[westhinder]

Midships cleats are essential IMHO.
I regularly singlehand my 39 footer and without them that would be a great deal more difficult. Also when sailing two up or fully crewed the midships line is normally the first ashore, used as forward or aft spring as conditions dictate. When that is secured, all the rest is simple.
For the position, I would say on the point of greatest beam, although a few centimeters either way will not alter much. The further outboard the better.

 

[MagicalArmchair]

Midships cleats are essential IMHO.
I regularly singlehand my 39 footer and without them that would be a great deal more difficult. Also when sailing two up or fully crewed the midships line is normally the first ashore, used as forward or aft spring as conditions dictate. When that is secured, all the rest is simple.
For the position, I would say on the point of greatest beam, although a few centimeters either way will not alter much. The further outboard the better.

I was in the throws of getting the last bits ready before we went away for the weekend (and the kiddies were revolting... in many ways) Roger, and when I came back by, you had been collared by another Chatham marina denizen. The work you did on Concertos decks look cracking, all that scraping finally paid off! Was it single pack paint you used?... wait, I'm drifting my own thread...

Thanks all, that's clinched it (or cleated it...), I'll put them on the point of most beam. Now to buy some cleats and find some time to attach um.

 

[laika]

I strongly advise you to try before you buy. Or "before you drill any holes" in this case. The widest part of the beam is the obvious place for putting a cleat but it might not be ideal if your primary objective is to be able to pin your boat to the pontoon when mooring short handed. On my boat powering against a mid-ship line with the helm over will often result in the stern swinging away from the pontoon. Having your centre line a little further back might make things easier. You could try directly from a winch. My freeboard and winch positions mean there's not really a good lead to a pontoon cleat. Gib car might work but as you say might have the same issue as my winches. I've seen it suggested that a line could be lead forward from a winch round a stanchion on the basis that stanchion bases are much stronger than the bendier upper bits and it's not *that* much load in the grand scheme of things. You look like you've got a perforated toe rail there (I don't) so I'd think about putting a block on the toe rail and leading my mid ship line from a winch through it: You can play with the position until it's right.

If you do go with the cleat at the widest part and the boat does swing the stern out when powering against a mid ship line, there's techniques to combat that but that's maybe a thread in itself.

TBH 6 years into owning this boat and invariably sailing it short handed I'm still experimenting.

 

[Len Ingalls]

Mid ship cleats are excellent for single handing.
I put mine just ahead of cockpit . I keep a 3m line with eye "permanently" att'd to cleat,coiled with a slip knot,& hung off lifelines where I can reach it from cockpit. This allows me to dock,grab mid-ship line without clambering up side deck & step ashore.
I don't find that the cleats have to be at widest point of hull myself. The point is to get somewhat secured & make final adjustments at your leisure with bow,stern & springs. Works for me.
/Len

 

[MagicalArmchair]

Either position would work - but why not fit Barton cleats to the track? You might find your track a bit too far inboard, but at least you could experiment and if necessary fit permanent cleats later.

Just looking back over the thread I raised an eyebrow at the above, did some Googling, realised I had track there on the toe rail, and voila! Easy (not exactly cheap) midships cleats! Best bit, no drilling holes! Good call Tranona!

https://marinestore.co.uk/Barton_Sliding_Cleat_Ali_205_mm.html

Which could go at the very end here:

Looking at the photo and using the window as reference, I think the last point on that track is here:

So a bit further aft than I would have liked, but it should do the job?

 

[Bav34]

The position of our cleat is just aft of midships.

View attachment 57522

This is essential to stop the line actually working as a spring whereby the bow of the boat turns in and the stern turns away from the pontoon leaving you stranded on board.

We keep our boat in France and this shot gives an idea of how short our finger is ... standard French practice.

View attachment 57523

The position of the cleat makes mooring easy. My wife steps off, drops the pre-rigged line over the cleat, I spin the helm over and leave the boat in gear whilst we wander around putting on the other ropes.

Really stress free.

 

[Hydrozoan]

We had through-the-toerail ones fitted at maximum beam years ago, but were a bit slow to use them - but do now. Having a boat of late 70's design, very 'diamond-shaped' in plan, does however produce rather a lot of pivot, and holding by motoring against a spring with a folding prop is a bit chancy at times (it's my excuse anyway).

 

[Bav34]

Having a boat of late 70's design, very 'diamond-shaped' in plan, does however produce rather a lot of pivot,

That's why having the cleat aft of centre-point is so critical. The line is actually a snubber not a spring.

If we need to spring we just put the line through the mid,but forward, fairlead.

 

[MagicalArmchair]

The position of our cleat is just aft of midships.

View attachment 57522

This is essential to stop the line actually working as a spring whereby the bow of the boat turns in and the stern turns away from the pontoon leaving you stranded on board.

We keep our boat in France and this shot gives an idea of how short our finger is ... standard French practice.

View attachment 57523

The position of the cleat makes mooring easy. My wife steps off, drops the pre-rigged line over the cleat, I spin the helm over and leave the boat in gear whilst we wander around putting on the other ropes.

Really stress free.

Thanks for the photos, and Hydrozoan, thanks for the method too.

So, in short (ish), approach dock, bleed off most way in the normal way, drop line over cleat, steer away from the dock going into gear slightly ahead, lash/autohelm tiller over away from dock, tie up. What happens if you are carry a smidge too much way and get snubbed by that line? Presumably with the helm steered hard away from the dock, that force would become sideways force taken up by your fender and our new cleat sucking you into the dock? Even if the stern does swing out a little way as the bow pivots in, it'll all correct (after application of a roving fender...)?

 

[jonjo]

What confuses me is that legions of sailors here are convinced about the mooring panacea offered by the mid cleat single snubbing line technique and yet there is hardly any public domain illustration available.

I asked for basic tuition on this subject back in 2009 and the best advice offered was in the form of a diagram which seems to suggest the reverse of Bav34's post in this thread.

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?210460-Centre-cleats-lassoos-and-mooring Post #6.

Still confused...

 

[derekgillard]

The position of our cleat is just aft of midships.

View attachment 57522

This is essential to stop the line actually working as a spring whereby the bow of the boat turns in and the stern turns away from the pontoon leaving you stranded on board.

We keep our boat in France and this shot gives an idea of how short our finger is ... standard French practice.

View attachment 57523

The position of the cleat makes mooring easy. My wife steps off, drops the pre-rigged line over the cleat, I spin the helm over and leave the boat in gear whilst we wander around putting on the other ropes.

Really stress free.

So I am clear the line runs from your stern and your wife drops it onto the mid cleat on the pontoon, you then put her astern helm over is that correct?
I have a similar recently purchased Bav and am experimenting with various ways to moor up short handed on my mooring the tide runs across the pontoon

 

[Bav34]

Jonjo, the point of the snubber is it stops the boat moving forward. Obviously.

It's the engine power AND rudder position that keeps it alongside the pontoon

If the line is forward of the centre the bow will still try to turn in with attendant stern out.

With it aft of centre and the helm over the boat can ONLY be held against the pontoon, in our case absolutely parallel.

 

[Tranona]

So I am clear the line runs from your stern and your wife drops it onto the mid cleat on the pontoon, you then put her astern helm over is that correct?
I have a similar recently purchased Bav and am experimenting with various ways to moor up short handed on my mooring the tide runs across the pontoon

The line goes from the aft most cleat on the pontoon to the mid cleat if you are going in bows first. line just the right length to ensure the bow does not touch the end. Opposite if you are going stern in, but with my new boat I now tend to back slowly up to the end with a big fender over the stern and leave in reverse. If the bow drifts out then quick burst of the bow thruster sorts it out. First line on is from the end of the pontoon to the mid cleat.

Think you have to experiment around the principles to find out what works for you.