Messalonghi Marina

[charles_reed]

Hmmm. And I thought boats were designed to stand on their keels, while the pads were merely to stabilise the vessel laterally. Of course, drying out alongside there aren't many pads around, so a line ashore is in order.

Lifting by pads puts stress where it's not designed to be borne, in a small area of contact, however big the pads are. Hence the strong preference for slings, which mould to fit a large area of pressure.

If you think about keels usually hang FROM the boat rather than supporting the boat, just as sailplane wings are designed for loading from below but won't stand much of a weight from above.
One might decry the quality of boat construction that allows the keel to "punch through" a boat bottom, but a tour of many Greek yards, where the boat weight is taken on the keel, shows a definite deflection in the keel area of the hull.

Unfortunately it's unlikely that the provision of a Travelift will obviate the problems at Messolonghi as, to obtain the greatest space-efficiency of boat-storage, a trailer will continue to be used.
If you care to work out the footprint needed for depositing boats using a trailer cf a Travelift the former gives about 140% space-utilisation of the latter.
I have been assured that the trailer at Messolonghi is a copy (however inefficient) of one widely used in the Netherlands. If that is so the critical factor that has been overlooked is that mediterranean boats tend to being larger than those in N European waters.
AWBs, with an egg-box bottom construction, will probably not be adversely affected by the trailer - however those of an old-fashioned floor/stringer bottom will, especially where the pads cannot be situated under a floor.
Composites can undergo considerable deflection without immediate delamination but, appreciable continued deflection will usually result in progressive deterioration.
A possible risk, for beamy boats, especially with "biscuit-lid" hull-deck joins, with unspaced slings is damage to and leaks at the join - probably most at risk are the very AWBs already referred to. Fortunately, when Christos is driving the Messolonghi crane, they are usually used - with a Travelift this problem does not occur.
Regarding insurance stipulations that the boats are on concreted hard standings, there will be a very limited number of Greek yards that can offer that. Maybe a ploy to evade obligations, rather than a cogent requirement?

 

[Chris_Robb]

Jim and Chris, hull constructor is not respected where hull deformation is concerned, if the boat is poorly cradled the hull deforms, GRP is "jelly"; as Charles says keels are designed to hang off the hull not to push up into it, so boats are happiest when afloat. Even yachts with encapsulated keels can suffer hull deformation, have a look at few you will find it. To combat it many supports are required around the hull, many more than the 4 we see.

I am not sure that a keel is only designed to hang off a hull. I am sure that designers of many boats take into account that they are stored ashore, AND also might be grounded heavily at least a few times in their life. Sure, keels are designed to hang, but they should be (IMHO) be designed to take load as well. For boats like Westerlies that is easy as the keels are very low aspect ratio with plenty of length along the hull keel join - and with a more egg shaped bottom.

Yes, I have seen plenty of boats with indented keels when stored on dry land. Have they experienced a grounding? Was the design strong enough? I would not want to own any of the brands where I have seen this.

EDIT I don't think I have ever seen a cradle or chocked boat in the UK that supports the hull and removes weight from the keel.

 

[vyv_cox]

I am not sure that a keel is only designed to hang off a hull. I am sure that designers of many boats take into account that they are stored ashore, AND also might be grounded heavily at least a few times in their life. Sure, keels are designed to hang, but they should be (IMHO) be designed to take load as well. For boats like Westerlies that is easy as the keels are very low aspect ratio with plenty of length along the hull keel join - and with a more egg shaped bottom.

Yes, I have seen plenty of boats with indented keels when stored on dry land. Have they experienced a grounding? Was the design strong enough? I would not want to own any of the brands where I have seen this.

EDIT I don't think I have ever seen a cradle or chocked boat in the UK that supports the hull and removes weight from the keel.

The GK29 is the perfect example. Boat No.1 was dried against a wall overnight, possibly on its first test sail, upon which the keel emerged into the saloon. The hulls were strengthened by Westerly but similar problems continued. The one I owned was bought as a bare hull, the owner adding considerable strengthening in the keel area. In my ownership the boat went aground when its mooring failed and the yard who carried out the repair added further strengthening. Despite all that a leak persisted between hull and keel and a gap opened up when the boat was in slings.

 

[Chris_Robb]

The GK29 is the perfect example. Boat No.1 was dried against a wall overnight, possibly on its first test sail, upon which the keel emerged into the saloon. The hulls were strengthened by Westerly but similar problems continued. The one I owned was bought as a bare hull, the owner adding considerable strengthening in the keel area. In my ownership the boat went aground when its mooring failed and the yard who carried out the repair added further strengthening. Despite all that a leak persisted between hull and keel and a gap opened up when the boat was in slings.

Vyv - I worked for westerly then, and it was not the only one! 4 from Jersey which floated in cradles grounding on every tide. It took 1 year for the problem to show. The GK29 had a much more high aspect ratio keel than they normally built so they were caught out. . However the first Fulmar lost its keel (whilst floating) in front of Dublin Yacht club. We had queried the layup during the costing process, but what do accountants know about this......?! This was Ed Dubois 1st Westerly. They were reinforced to such an extent that they became a sea-school favourite.

 

[charles_reed]

EDIT I don't think I have ever seen a cradle or chocked boat in the UK that supports the hull and removes weight from the keel.

Chris, look around Dover - they all do.

Its all about where the weight acts

The centre of gravity of most modern designs is below the hull and aft of the keel, i.e. in thin air. So if you stand the boat on its keel it will sit back onto its rudder, to prevent this it needs to be chocked up at the aft end, insufficient chocking causes lots of hull deformation at the aft quarters and at rear of the keel and a gap opens up at the front of the keel hull joint, all very very common place.

The correct way to place a boat in a cradle is to lower it level onto its keel until the crane registers a reduction in mass equal to the weight of the keel, the hull is then supported all round in the cradle - in other words as close as possible to what happens when its afloat.

That is, of course, with a fixed keel boat. Mine, with a lifting keel, is designed to be supported on the keel and has floors at about 400mm centres - grossly overdesigned and probably the reason that she came out floating well beyond her marks.
The use of the cradles in Messolongi has only become adequate during the last year, prior to that the pads were far too high up to either support the boats' weight or prevent rotation.
Having watched their performance over the last 3 years I, for one, have seen a continual improvement. There have been errors of management judgement, notably in teaming up with Palamos and in the design of the boat-trailer (which is, in short, too short for the job).
The first has been corrected, the second is IMHO the most cogent reason for not using the place - but only if your boat will suffer on the trailer.
I'd suspect that 90% of people currently there would give the place a rating of satisfactory to good.
I doubt if any boatyard, anywhere in the world will obtain a good rating from ALL users.

 

[BlackSheep1]

I assume by (Pants you mean Pantaenius). On contacting Pantaenius they assure me they DO NOT stipulate concrete hard standing. All they ask is that the ground is in suitable condition for the storage of boats. Off course you could argue what is SUITABLE. I like many have had their boats stored in the likes of Prevesa and Messalenghi yards, non concrete, which appears to be the norm.

 

[jimbaerselman]

I've always assumed that cruising boats which sailed in waters with a significant tidal range were designed to be able to dry out alongside. So I asked all the exhibitors of cruising yachts with fin keels over 10m LOA (except Oyster) at LIBS if their boats were suitable for this. The answers were all "of course they are" - which one qualified with a "but don't let all the crew go forward unless the bow is supported".

But of course, they would say this. So I looked at how they were all supported at the show. Over half (8) were supported by the keel, with 4 to 6 small pads to stabilise them laterally and fore and aft. Another four were supported by the keel, and had shaped formers fore and aft. But the formers were not shaped to fit the boats, and small wedges had been positioned to fill the gaps. It was obvious that these wedges were too small to be allowed to take significant weight. The remaining four boats had better fitted formers, or more and larger pads, and these could have provided some support in addition to the weight take by the keel.

I have to admit, looking at the length of the fin keels in contact with the ground (typically, around 1m.50cm to 2m - most had keel bulbs extended well aft of the keel) I would certainly have been nervous about drying out alongside without being assured the boat would not tip forward or aft.

The reports above, that some boats are damaged by taking their weight on the keel, suggests a severe defect. It seems some designers are ignoring, or have forgotten, a need to dry out alongside, and haven't told us.

Most disconcerting. Is this really the case?

 

[Chris_Robb]

I've always assumed that cruising boats which sailed in waters with a significant tidal range were designed to be able to dry out alongside. So I asked all the exhibitors of cruising yachts with fin keels over 10m LOA (except Oyster) at LIBS if their boats were suitable for this. The answers were all "of course they are" - which one qualified with a "but don't let all the crew go forward unless the bow is supported".

But of course, they would say this. So I looked at how they were all supported at the show. Over half (8) were supported by the keel, with 4 to 6 small pads to stabilise them laterally and fore and aft. Another four were supported by the keel, and had shaped formers fore and aft. But the formers were not shaped to fit the boats, and small wedges had been positioned to fill the gaps. It was obvious that these wedges were too small to be allowed to take significant weight. The remaining four boats had better fitted formers, or more and larger pads, and these could have provided some support in addition to the weight take by the keel.

I have to admit, looking at the length of the fin keels in contact with the ground (typically, around 1m.50cm to 2m - most had keel bulbs extended well aft of the keel) I would certainly have been nervous about drying out alongside without being assured the boat would not tip forward or aft.

The reports above, that some boats are damaged by taking their weight on the keel, suggests a severe defect. It seems some designers are ignoring, or have forgotten, a need to dry out alongside, and haven't told us.

Most disconcerting. Is this really the case?

Jim, I stick to my view - especially in the light of your enquiries, that boats are designed to sit on their keels. Where there is indenting when resting on land - that is as a result of damage or degradation - very often the result of poor design, de-laminated interior mouldings etc. They are most certainly not designed that way as others have implied.

 

[jimbaerselman]

Jim, I stick to my view - especially in the light of your enquiries, that boats are designed to sit on their keels. Where there is indenting when resting on land - that is as a result of damage or degradation - very often the result of poor design, de-laminated interior mouldings etc. They are most certainly not designed that way as others have implied.

So we seem to be agreed that this flexing is a boat design fault, and it's reasonable for marina operators to expect vessels to take weight on their keels when ashore. Obviously, unless advised otherwise for a particular boat!

 

[Chris_Robb]

So we seem to be agreed that this flexing is a boat design fault, and it's reasonable for marina operators to expect vessels to take weight on their keels when ashore. Obviously, unless advised otherwise for a particular boat!

Quite

 

[BobnLesley]

We need to stop posting to this thread...

as we're running the risk of misleading any passing viewers:

If you look at the Liveaboard Forum Index, there is now has a line starting 'Missalongi Marina' that also has five stars on it.

Whilst we're currently wintering in Missalongi and have found nothing that we can't live with or ignore, I don't feel comfortable with the possibility that anybody might think those five stars are a rating for the marina.

 

[charles_reed]

The GK29 is the perfect example. Boat No.1 was dried against a wall overnight, possibly on its first test sail, upon which the keel emerged into the saloon. The hulls were strengthened by Westerly but similar problems continued. The one I owned was bought as a bare hull, the owner adding considerable strengthening in the keel area. In my ownership the boat went aground when its mooring failed and the yard who carried out the repair added further strengthening. Despite all that a leak persisted between hull and keel and a gap opened up when the boat was in slings.

Of course the GK range was designed from the outset as lightweight flyers, so the comparison, though correct, is a tad unfair.
Whether boats should be designed to stand on their keels is, I would think, an arguable point under fitness for use conditions, just as fracturing spade rudders (another notorious weak point in boat design) and disappearing keels (I do not refer here to Bavarias alone).
High performance underwater shapes lead to increased fragility, allied to lightening designs as much as possible, means that go-faster boat are usually more prone to break than more traditional constructions and designs.

 

[rivonia]

as we're running the risk of misleading any passing viewers:

If you look at the Liveaboard Forum Index, there is now has a line starting 'Missalongi Marina' that also has five stars on it.

Whilst we're currently wintering in Missalongi and have found nothing that we can't live with or ignore, I don't feel comfortable with the possibility that anybody might think those five stars are a rating for the marina.

As you got no reply, here's my two peeny worth. You are spot on! It is not a five star marina it is not even a one star (my oppinion) and the threads are leading away from messalongi marina and going on to the structure of monohulls.

Peter

 

[jimbaerselman]

The hull design conversation arose because the marina was accused of using ineffective pads to take the weight of boats on the trailer. I made the point that cruising boats are designed to take their weight on the keel, and pads are solely meant to stabilise the boat. This implied the criticism was invalid if the trailer was properly used.

Those who own boats which cannot take weight on the keel will always need specialist treatment when being stored or moved ashore, and it will be down to them to ensure the marina handles their boat suitably.

The marina itself is only half completed, so it cannot be a five star job. Half the area is a building site. It has essential facilities, a pleasant bar, it is exceptionally well sheltered with no surge or wash from passing vessels. The town, although 20 minutes walk away, is delightful. The place has also been good value for money for wintering ashore or afloat.

There has been one incident when a cradled boat collapsed, knocking some others down, creating some damage. Since then cradles have been changed and are now massively strong, and a questionable sub-contractor no longer works in partnership with the marina.

As Greek marinas go, it's pretty good, and has a lot of long term promise. It will take a long time (if ever) to reach the high standards offered by some smart Turkish marinas, with their swimming pools and clubs.

 

[JonJon]

Think its time this messalonghi knocking stopped. I visited the place last year looked perfectly OK to me BWTFDIK I do know people who have been out of the water there and are happy with it even enjoyed their stay. AS for boats that cant stand their own weight on the keel - well how the devil are you supposed to prop them? I despair - half the boat yards in the world would be in trouble. AS for boats falling over - this happened at Aktio in 2010 and almost the complete boatyard at Vlicho fell over in the Tornado last year- accidents happen - ask Carnival cruises.

Give the guys a break its hard running your own business.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Think its time this messalonghi knocking stopped. I visited the place last year looked perfectly OK to me BWTFDIK I do know people who have been out of the water there and are happy with it even enjoyed their stay. AS for boats that cant stand their own weight on the keel - well how the devil are you supposed to prop them? I despair - half the boat yards in the world would be in trouble. AS for boats falling over - this happened at Aktio in 2010 and almost the complete boatyard at Vlicho fell over in the Tornado last year- accidents happen - ask Carnival cruises.

Give the guys a break its hard running your own business.

Hello
from reading these new threads I do not see any Messalonghi knocking, in fact it looks as if the clients are enjoying their stay there.
Very nice turnaround in one year. Well done

 

[charles_reed]

Well done, Jim for a very balanced and objective response and rtboss for accepting things have changed.

Finally - whatever sort of boat you have and however much you rely upon uberrimae fides in the law of contract, you should take responsibility for how your boat is handled and stored ashore. That means taking a view on the competence and quality of any boatyard you use.
That's why a site like this, though suffering from its fair share of subjective ranters, is such a valuable corpus of knowledge.

 

[BobnLesley]

I disagree with that rating even more

"it is not even a one star"

My tongue-in-cheek post of last weekwas meant to reflect that it's still a work in progress and certainly not '5-star'; but it's closer to getting that than to Rivonia's outdated assesment.

Actually, I don't see how 1-star could ever have been a reasoned and accurate assement: We visited Missalongi long before there was a marina and the harbour's natural shelter and friendly/helpful locals put it well above one-star even then.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Well done, Jim for a very balanced and objective response and rt boss for accepting things.

I will wait until you are all back in the water and away from there, to really believe

only joking

 

[Magor3]

Sadly Even Messier

This is our second summer in Messolonghi and, sadly, I would not recommend the place to anyone anymore, except to those who are really good at doing their own repairs etc.

On the plus side:
Lovely town, friendly locals, all shopping within a ten minutes' bike ride
Very quiet
Marina well protected from most winds
The Marina Sunset cafe is great and the new marina minimarket a plus
Reasonable annual rates (although they are going up)
Good sailing community (BBQs, help from others...)

On the minus side:
Security is almost non existent (although, this said, I have not heard of any problems)
Very dusty yard, full of potholes and ridges which will take your exhaust off
Marineros need training and supervision
Marina office keeping 'office hours' and closed on Sundays
Electricity and water connections now padlocked to the supply post thereby ensuring you cannot leave without first paying (fair enough but you can't leave before the office opens in the morning)
Expensive water and electricity
Poor lighting within the marina
Concrete pontoons are not evenly set (gaps between them), which is dangerous especially at night
Heard a lady complain recently that one used to be able to take a lukewarm shower free of charge but now you have to pay even for a cold shower
When they took our boat out the first time, lack of care resulting in scratches to hull. Often, no protection used to protect hulls
Even with an annual contract, there is the possibility that you come back and find there is no berth for you (happened to us in June this year and we had to moor in a dangerous position for a few days, despite having warned the marina of our return date)
Potentially care to be taken over diesel suppliers (credit card refused at last minute, lots of stories about the diesel meter being incorrectly set)
BUT MOST OF ALL AND THIS IS WHY WE WILL SADLY LEAVE WHEN OUR CONTRACT IS UP
Extremely appalling and allegedly corrupt management of all yard services by the now infamous Yiannis, who lacks the competence required but is also not to be trusted (how many times have I heard the story of a quote being given then tripled on the day the works were about to start by Yiannis) - to be honest, I would not have ANY work done in this marina at the moment and I dread anything going wrong on the boat.

We witnessed an extremely poor GRP repair on a yacht last summer, which resulted in the work being dismissed by the (British) insurers and the boat having to be taken under escort to another marina for the repair to be totally re-done. The British owner was not allowed by Yiannis to have his surveyor's recommended GRP/boat repair company do the work, it was done by a couple of mechanics from a local car repair shop instead and none of the surveyor's instructions had been followed. We also saw the damage to the inside teak sole of a French yacht ruined by the use of an angle grinder to 'polish' it and having to be repainted, line by line, to make it look like teak again! A French yacht owner who had shipped his own alternator with full instructions for its replacement came back to find out that the work had not been done on time, the workers were going off for the weekend and his written quote had been tripled by Yiannis on a whim. Yiannis quoted us what we would have paid in St Tropez for antifouling + lift out/boat back in water even though we'd already paid for the lift out/back in water within our contract. He then dropped the 'quote' from 1,000€ to 600€ - we did it ourselves!

Stories abound up and down the Ionian and no doubt some of them are inflated but I have never been in a marina when one hears so many disaster stories, all caused by one man. There is no smoke without fire and until the situation is resolved and there is a proper yard service manager in place, we sadly could not recommend this marina even though we love the area and the people of Messolonghi.