Message from Switzerland (very slightly boaty)

[Twister_Ken]

There's probably a reason why all the best hotel schools and managers are Swiss. And I don't 'spoze it's cuckoo clocks.

And if you want to know how good mass-market catering can be, try Movenpick.

 

[Major Catastrophe]

Thanks cruisingsteve. Sounds like they have some good ideas. Services locally owned. Of course, in the UK they are all owned by the French!.

 

[canalcruiser]

Resurants in Switzerland will often employ trained staff which cost more but keep the customers.
The only grumble i had/have is when i was shopping in Zurich with my then 2 year old son when i sat at a terrase table for lunch i was told i couldent as my son would take a place but not eat!(that was years ago but its still the same

In the provences the family often run the resturants and may or may not be trained.A lot are and take trainees who do a good job.A trainee may be paid 1000sfr PM but might pay 990sfr for board and loging!It works though.

If your unemplyed and cant find a job then you can retern to your village and there youll be given a job with the council and earn about 3500sfr PM thats why the roads are kept up and parks orderly.

While im hear if any of you liveing in the flesh pots of Switzerland would like to make a tax deduction you can send me a bank transfer for any amount ill send you a card saying "thanks"Unfortunatly a few kilos of bank notes put into my hat at the street corner wouldent count for tax purposes.

I better go and look for a bank that will give me an account in Belgium

Switzerland is well run and the system works,and would be better if the EEC copied the swiss system of central government and kantons

No one asked how not to pay a speeding fine!!

 

[MapisM]

Locusts

[ QUOTE ]
it's a bit debateable how risky it is...

[/ QUOTE ]
Franz Muentefering gave the most accurate and effective definition of these business practices.
Any further debate is pointless imho.

 

[jhr]

I went to Switzerland once; it was shut.

Iirc, Frederick Forsyth condemned Zurich as "not even having a decent brothel" in one of his novels.

 

[tcm]

Name-calling of specific groups by populist German politicians

Hm. Fortunately, not everyone stops debating as quickly you do.

Private equity is not universally wonderful, and perhaps some people should pay more tax - although the laws at the moment say otherwise.
People and orgainsations buy companies with agreement, not by force nor in any way comparable to a locust. The practise is but a simple aspect of capitalism, not an enemy of the state as suggested.

Muentefering and many others like to refer to jobs as wonderful creations, as things that must be preserved at almost any cost: but they are not. Sometimes more jobs are indicative of a healthy expanding business, other times not.

 

[tcm]

absence of decent brothel

um, possibly so. They don't have the Daily Sport or Page 3 either. Another important Vital Freedom that many seem to be fine without...

 

[Neddie_Seagoon]

Re: Locusts

So you would effectively deny the owners of larger businesses the right to sell the asset they have created?

Or perhaps you'd prefer failing businesses to fail rather than being bought and re-invigorated by more competent management?

 

[MapisM]

Back to boaty

[ QUOTE ]
Hm. Fortunately, not everyone stops debating as quickly you do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh yes, I know this can be an endless debate.
Proof of that is the number of articles written by private equity gurus against the locust concept, to explain why they are actually the engine of modern economy, and so forth...
But as a matter of fact, these gentlemen are just resellers.
Very smart resellers of course, who found elegant ways to purchase at low prices, using very little of their own money, and sell at higher prices, keeping most of the income for themselves. And paying very little - often none at all - taxes in between.
At the end of the day, they just shift resources from the real economy to their own pockets.
All within legal boundaries of course - you'd expect that, when most of your expenses are for tax & legal advisors!

That's why the locust concept is appropriate - regardless of other political reasons behind it. Nothing to see with enforcement or being an enemy of the state.
And that's why they got nervous about it.

See, this hypocrisy is what I really can't accept.
You are the smartest resellers of modern times - all right.
You managed to collect enough money to treat yourself to the most expensive toys around (did I say 'back to boaty'?) - fair enough.
You deserve to enjoy a luxury life.
But please, don't expect people to believe that you are the salvation army of modern capitalism.
Don't pretend to be considered visionary entrapreneurs.
There are more and more people around who had the opportunity to see how the game actually works.
You can't fool them all.

 

[MapisM]

Non sequitur

Pardon? Where did I say anything like that?

 

[MapisM]

How wrong he was!
...unless of course he meant "not even having an official brothel"...

 

[tcm]

visionary

hm, probably not an endless debate at this level.

Yep, these PE guys might merely find a willing seller of a business, and later find a willing buyer. However, er that's effectively what the capitalist system is, mostly. Buying stuff, and selling it. Sorry bout that. It's good that they often buy a massive boat with the proceeds i suppose.

Where's this "real" economy though? Why are the butcher the baker et al so much better, more "real"? Praps cos they make 100 quid, not 100million quid? Mediocrity is so well-loved.

Tony Blair reputedly said he wanted far more than 50% of school leavers to be better than average, and it seems that some people might believe it was possible. If only everyone paid that bit more tax, dya think?

 

[MapisM]

Butcher and baker

And you wonder why they are more real than the finance magicians? Oh, dear.
It's not the number of quid, it's not the mediocrity vs. the excellence (whatever that means).
It's the fact that money can buy bread and meat as long as somebody is working to make them available.
Sure, the magicians could argue that it's the other way round, and the baker wouldn't exist if nobody would buy his bread.
Sorry, I don't buy such theory.
Could you imagine a world where everybody would only have the skills to draw mezzanine facility agreements and similar stuff?
Dull meetings with banks and lawyers all day long, but plenty of money for everyone at the end.
And absolutely nothing to buy with it. No bread, no meat, no Maltese Falcon. Nothing.
I'd rather live in a world of butchers and bakers.

Then again, chacun à son goût.
To me, Switzerland is one of the most boring countries in the world, and Istanbul is much more interesting than Geneva.
Besides, as you surely noticed, they have no sea. My God, what a misery!
But I also understand your reasons, and I'm not trying to convince you to move to Istanbul (though you might find the very same waiters as in Geneva... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif).

As I said, it's not what the PE guys do, it's their hypocrisy which is ridiculous.
They are able to raise tax-free money just reselling butcheries, bakeries and the likes - all legally: fine.
They are so proud of their job that they see themselves as the masters of the world: good for them.
But they cry out loud when someone call them locusts, and they expect us to believe that they are the Henry Ford or the Enzo Ferrari of modern times.
Couldn't they just continue to cumulate money, without making those gentlemen turn in their graves?

 

[trouville]

Re: Butcher and baker

The face of new money is never a nice one.

 

[Oliveoyl]

Re: Butcher and baker

And the face of old money is not necessarily nice either

 

[tcm]

Elementary economics lesson for Mapis M

ah, so you think bakers etc would thrive with no customers. A lovely idea. Right-thinking townsfolk toiling away and somehow (not sure how) making an "honest living".

Numerous examples show otherwise: if the demand for bread was flaky, praps as in a seasonal touristy town, then the baker would go bust, and the guy who took orders for bread and drove to the next town to pick up bread as required and deliver to the doorstep would thrive.

Or, supposing the butcher or baker does very well, as many have? They open branches in the next village, and across the country. Their wonderful products are loved by all.

Some think that people who start such a company - that a couple of decades later is worth (say) £20m or £x00 million quid- will er, um well yerknow, "carry on". I dunno, er pass it on to children or whatever. Really? Maybe, maybe not.

And the same applies to pension fund managers holding static shares worth £1m at market price ...offered £1.3m. They won't refuse.

There is no market for bread when there are no (or not enough) BUYERS of bread. Yet there are (usually, always) buyers of bread. And meat and lots of other stuff. And companies too.

You can make a market in anything if there *are* buyers. Flats in bulgaria, real estate on the moon, teak-cleaning chemicals, maps of where to sail a boat. All of these may seem mere transient frippery, but they give many thousands a living. The same applies to companies, but you need to get your head around the idea.

You cannot make a market if there are no buyers.

Your heros of "real" things such as Henry Ford and erm Enzo Ferrari (a seller of overpriced loose cars to millionaires? ... ok) and so on would understand this perfectly.

In modern times, it is highly likely that those guys would be financial rathr than mechanical engineers, and the difference is not very great. Your own inability to make a similar leap may explain your relatively rubbish financial situation, and that of your compatriots, and that of Ford and Fiat too! - both organisations rather desperate at this very moment for a PE acquirer to drop out of the clouds and help them out.

 

[trouville]

Re: Elementary economics lesson for Mapis M

Ive just eaten. I sliced beatroot i found left at the market i cooked onions garlic (found) in a soup spoon of olive oil(bought form a producer in Tuscany ItalyMargareta Ligure)

When they were just transparent i added some Baslic Vinigar (bought in Genova Italy) some sea salt (found in Sete) ground black peper (bought maximarche FR 2€ 5oogms)then i added a table spoon of white 55 flour mixed and when it become a sause i added the cut beatroot.

It was very good together with a glass of cool white wine from my new compressor fridge (small but effective) it was and old but good sylvaner.

I then took small red potatoes(found left at the market) out of the press pot sliced them and added a chive sauce made from one spoon olive oil one large spoon white flour then diluted apple vinigar and white wine poured slowly while stering then when the sauce has thickend i added chives and herbs provence mixed and put over the potatoes broccali asparagus and spinich

I opened another bottle of Bordeaux red 1997 sliced some cooked bacon i did in the press pot with the pots some grain Dijon mustard with boat baked fresh crusty bread (i forgot it!Nice crisp crust though) and relax

The sun going down walm enough for shorts and tea shirt the river dirifting slowly by no traffic no noise and rasberrys gooseberries and cassis for breakfast

A another glass of wine with some comte cheese (bio) then hope that voipcheap.com will still be working when i shut this link.Life in summer away from those that have sooooooooooooooooooo much money and show is better

In winter i will accept champagne and dinners though the new rich sometimes revert to meaness and tell us invitees that we all have to pay when they see the cost of a poor dinner with poor wine!Otherwise i will continue to cook for myself and the few economicaly chalenged left.

Liveing on 7/6 a weeks becomeing more challenging as my lap top becomes older,how do i make a provision for depeciation?

 

[tcm]

Re: Elementary economics lesson for Mapis M

I am guessing you are "offshore" in all senses of the word, yes?

 

[MapisM]

Liebster herr professor tcm,

I just expressed my thoughts so far, as politely as I could with my limited knowledge of your language (shame on the Oxford teachers that weren't able to bring me to a better level).
Even the locust concept, which might sound rude, isn't something I invented - though I understand why somebody did.
Yes, I took the liberty to call "hypocrites" and "financial magicians" the, ermm, financial magicians.
But I explained why, and it wasn't meant to be offensive. Besides, I never said there's anything wrong in what they do, just possibly in what some of them pretend to be.

In reply to that, you felt the need to:

1) Show me (or possibly to all forumites?) that you can teach us the basics of economics.
Thank you, but I already knew those basics, plus one or two other things, based on some decades of practice. And I am sure that you actually understood that, as well as I understood that the same applies to yourself.
That's ok though, I even saw the lesson coming, if you check my previous post ("...the magicians could argue that it's the other way round, and the baker wouldn't exist if nobody would buy his bread").

2) Classify as my heroes (assuming that's what you meant for 'heros')...[ QUOTE ]
...Henry Ford and erm Enzo Ferrari (a seller of overpriced loose cars to millionaires? ... ok)

[/ QUOTE ]See, actually I was just reporting something said by one of the German magicians, in reply to the locust concept.
Did you possibly mean their heroes?
Besides, I don't see why you are against those who sell overpriced loose cars to millionaires, when at the same time you also say that "You can make a market in anything if there *are* buyers". Which is absolutely correct; we have for example people near a river in Tuscany doing a similar business, with equally loose products. So what, as long as you buy them?
Anyway. Any opinion is, as such, legitimate.

3) Assert that Ford and Ferrari nowadays...[ QUOTE ]
...would be financial rathr than mechanical engineers, and the difference is not very great.

[/ QUOTE ]I refrain from commenting on the difference - that's again a matter of opinion, and if you can't see it, there's no way I could make you see it.
Re. what they would be these days, God only knows. But I do know what they've been, whilst apparently you don't.
You probably don't know why Ferrari didn't sell his company to Ford, but it wasn't a matter of price, and I doubt that his reasons would have brougth him to a different conclusion nowadays, regardless of the counterpart.
You probably missed what Ford thought of accounting and finance (which were around also at that times, you know).
But at the end of the day, you live with your views, I live with mine, no problem at all.

4) In cauda venenum, you sentenced that...[ QUOTE ]
...Your own inability to make a similar leap may explain your relatively rubbish financial situation, and that of your compatriots

[/ QUOTE ]Now Sir, this is not a matter of opinions anymore.
This statement of yours is both ignorant and offensive, and I don't understand why.
You don't know anything about my ability (or lack of it) to make any leaps, either in finance or in any other field.
And apart from the fact that you know nothing also about my financial situation, I wouldn't tell "your financial situation is rubbish" neither to a single beggar nor to the poorest Country in the world.
I guess it's a matter of style.
Maybe the UK, together with most of its "real - but not so fancy anymore" industrial power, has also lost its style.
Or maybe it's more personal. In this case, whenever you would be around the med, just send me a pm and I will gladly offer you some elementary Italian style lessons for free on my humble boat, together with a glass of sassicaia.
And since you mentioned Buffini in your starting post, I could also explain you why for the start-up of the last two newly established offices in Madrid and Tokyo we had to send two Italians to get the job accomplished.