Mark-1
Well-known member
Meaning you reckon the exhaust out of the tell tale is *more* likely to be symptom than cause? Or just an equal chance?
Mercury 3.3hp 2 Stroke - No water through Tell Tale.
- Thread starter Polybus
- Start date
Meaning you reckon the exhaust out of the tell tale is *more* likely to be symptom than cause? Or just an equal chance?
VicS
Well-known member
Yes a symptom.
Are we sure that the water tube is a good tight fit in the pump outlet .. grommet in good condition
Are we sure the grommet at the top of the water tube is correctly fitted and in good condition
Are we sure that the water tube is not holed
Snowgoose-1
Well-known member
With the gearbox detached and a plastic pipe pushed on to the copper tube in the leg and pushed onto the pump outlet does water come out of the pee hole when a drill is used to spin the pump ?
Refueler
Well-known member
Not impossible to have a bit of crud sitting in a waterway that blocks lower pressure - but higher pressure can get round ??
I'd be inclined to run a drum of Rydlyme or Fernox through the whole system just to make sure ...
I'd be inclined to run a drum of Rydlyme or Fernox through the whole system just to make sure ...
baldyash
Member
Mine had a very week flow from the rubber hose. I connected a compressor to said hose and back flushed with air whilst leg in water.Plenty of gurgling and lots of air from the leg within the water. Works well now and has been used for a couple of hours since and still a reasonable amount from the rubber hose
Polybus
New member
Refueler - Thanks for the video - I would be very happy to get that amount (or in fact any amount) or water out of my Tell Tale.
VicS - Ahhhhh - yes - the exhaust from the Tell Tale could be a symptom, not the cause.....
VicS - I can answer a firm Yes to all 3 questions - The Water Tube and the rubber grommets at each end look fine.
Anderson1947 - that is a test that I have not done - but I will - What do you hope to achieve with this test? What will it prove/Disprove? I guess if I connect the Pump Outlet and the bottom of the copper Water Pipe with the clear PVC Pipe, I will physically see if the water if getting expelled by the Water Pump and into the copper Water Pipe. I suspect it will do, but I won't *know* until I try it. But from past experience everything seems to work fine without the engine running.
Maybe I can devise a way to also do this test with the Engine Running - actually it won't be that difficult - I can just do the same test with the engine running.
So - as Anderson1947 suggested - detach gearbox - clear PVC Pipe from Water Pump outlet to bottom of copper Water Pipe going up the leg and then sping the Drive Shaft with a drill with the Engine off.
Then do exactly the same test with exactly the same setup, but this time with the engine running.
Results will be interesting.
Baldyash - another thing I have not done - I will try this as well. May as well - I won't have to pull it all apart again to try this.
And now the bad news.......
I have to leave home for 2 weeks work out in rural New South Wales - so I won't get to play with this little engine for another 2 weeks - which is a major bummer - I want to get this thing going.
But the bright side is - I will actually be allowed to leave my home!!!
For those of you who may not be following the Australian News - we are quickly turning into a Fascist Dictatorship - we have been locked in our houses now for 2 months, and it has just been extended for another month. We are allowed out to buy food, and to exercise for 1 hour a day. We have just had a curfew introduced, so we are not allowed out of our houses at all after 9pm at night.
I actually had to apply for a permit to leave Sydney.
People are going stir crazy - many more people have committed suicide than have been harmed by the virus. Hundreds of thousands out of work, can't pay their bills, not allowed out of their house - depression is skyrocketing and the suicide rate is going up with it.
Anyway.......don't get me started.
So - I may not be reporting back on these latest suggestions until after I get back home in 2 weeks time (if I am allowed back home - who knows what they will do to us next)
Until then.......keep thinking up ideas to get this little fella going again - I will probably be reading this, and may be replying, but I won't have access to the engine, so won't be able to run any suggested tests etc.
Thanks heaps for all your help so far....see you in 2 weeks - because I will not give up!!!!
VicS - Ahhhhh - yes - the exhaust from the Tell Tale could be a symptom, not the cause.....
VicS - I can answer a firm Yes to all 3 questions - The Water Tube and the rubber grommets at each end look fine.
Anderson1947 - that is a test that I have not done - but I will - What do you hope to achieve with this test? What will it prove/Disprove? I guess if I connect the Pump Outlet and the bottom of the copper Water Pipe with the clear PVC Pipe, I will physically see if the water if getting expelled by the Water Pump and into the copper Water Pipe. I suspect it will do, but I won't *know* until I try it. But from past experience everything seems to work fine without the engine running.
Maybe I can devise a way to also do this test with the Engine Running - actually it won't be that difficult - I can just do the same test with the engine running.
So - as Anderson1947 suggested - detach gearbox - clear PVC Pipe from Water Pump outlet to bottom of copper Water Pipe going up the leg and then sping the Drive Shaft with a drill with the Engine off.
Then do exactly the same test with exactly the same setup, but this time with the engine running.
Results will be interesting.
Baldyash - another thing I have not done - I will try this as well. May as well - I won't have to pull it all apart again to try this.
And now the bad news.......
I have to leave home for 2 weeks work out in rural New South Wales - so I won't get to play with this little engine for another 2 weeks - which is a major bummer - I want to get this thing going.
But the bright side is - I will actually be allowed to leave my home!!!
For those of you who may not be following the Australian News - we are quickly turning into a Fascist Dictatorship - we have been locked in our houses now for 2 months, and it has just been extended for another month. We are allowed out to buy food, and to exercise for 1 hour a day. We have just had a curfew introduced, so we are not allowed out of our houses at all after 9pm at night.
I actually had to apply for a permit to leave Sydney.
People are going stir crazy - many more people have committed suicide than have been harmed by the virus. Hundreds of thousands out of work, can't pay their bills, not allowed out of their house - depression is skyrocketing and the suicide rate is going up with it.
Anyway.......don't get me started.
So - I may not be reporting back on these latest suggestions until after I get back home in 2 weeks time (if I am allowed back home - who knows what they will do to us next)
Until then.......keep thinking up ideas to get this little fella going again - I will probably be reading this, and may be replying, but I won't have access to the engine, so won't be able to run any suggested tests etc.
Thanks heaps for all your help so far....see you in 2 weeks - because I will not give up!!!!
Mark-1
Well-known member
This is going to be the longest two weeks of my life! The suspense is already unbearable.
Good luck!
Good luck!
Polybus
New member
Well - I'm back. But through some good luck (or bad luck, depending on your point of view) - I am off again tomorrow for 3 weeks of work. I don't really want to go, but hey, you've got to take any work you can get these days.
Anyway.
I have made up a little adaptor hose that allows me to connect the output from my water pump to the bottom of the water pipe at the bottom of the mid section of the leg. I can now spin the drive shaft with a drill with the gearbox off the leg, and watch what happens.
I spin the drive shaft, I can see a large amount of water spitting out the hole in the side of the Water Pump, and I can see a small amount leaking around the hose where it fits into the little black rubber grommetty thing on the top (exit) of the water pump.
I can leave it spinning at high revs on the drill for a minute or so, and nothing from the Tell Tale.
I can see water leaving the water pump (the hose is translucent PVC), so I know it is at least getting into the bottom of the Water Pipe. I can see water dripping back down. the leg.
But nothing from the Tell-Tale.
If I block the hole in the side of the Water Pump case - I will get water from the Tell-Tale - but not a strong flow (like I do from my identical engines.
I am not entirely sure where to go from here - I need to have a think about it. I was expecting to get a good flow with the engine off, and no flow with the engine running - but no flow with the engine off needs a bit of thought.
My first thought is that the water pump isn't putting out a big enough volume of water..... more later.
I am going to take the engine with me this time - so hopefully I can keep investigating while I am away.
Anyway.
I have made up a little adaptor hose that allows me to connect the output from my water pump to the bottom of the water pipe at the bottom of the mid section of the leg. I can now spin the drive shaft with a drill with the gearbox off the leg, and watch what happens.
I spin the drive shaft, I can see a large amount of water spitting out the hole in the side of the Water Pump, and I can see a small amount leaking around the hose where it fits into the little black rubber grommetty thing on the top (exit) of the water pump.
I can leave it spinning at high revs on the drill for a minute or so, and nothing from the Tell Tale.
I can see water leaving the water pump (the hose is translucent PVC), so I know it is at least getting into the bottom of the Water Pipe. I can see water dripping back down. the leg.
But nothing from the Tell-Tale.
If I block the hole in the side of the Water Pump case - I will get water from the Tell-Tale - but not a strong flow (like I do from my identical engines.
I am not entirely sure where to go from here - I need to have a think about it. I was expecting to get a good flow with the engine off, and no flow with the engine running - but no flow with the engine off needs a bit of thought.
My first thought is that the water pump isn't putting out a big enough volume of water..... more later.
I am going to take the engine with me this time - so hopefully I can keep investigating while I am away.
apogee
Member
Backflush the tell-tale tube using a syringe. Always works for me!
lustyd
Well-known member
You may have missed a few posts. OP has literally tried everything short of a barium enema.
VicS
Well-known member
I am sure the pump is not performing correctly
I think you need to revisit the pump overhaul. Check that everything is assembled correctly ... again , and be suspicious of the parts you have used . I think there is a mismatch there somewhere. I would have been happier if you told me that you had used an OEM ( Mercury ) repair kit rather than Tohatsu parts.
Mark-1
Well-known member
I have nothing useful to add but thanks for returning to the thread, it's solid gold!
Polybus
New member
Just about to leave home (with the engine tucked safely into the back of the car) but couldn't resist posting just once more.
I can't believe I haven't got to the bottom of this yet. Well I can believe I haven't, but I can't believe the combined thoughts of this whole forum hasn't, and I think I have given everybody's ideas a good hearing and test. But the reality is, its a fairly simple system - water goes in one end, goes through a bunch of pipes/tubes, and comes out the other end. Why can't we solve this?
Every time I do a new test, my theories change.
My most recent tests make me think the Water Pump itself is to blame - but I don't know if you remember, I have tried not only a whole new water pump, but an entirely different gearbox/waterpump section - I was so confident it was the water pump I went out and bough a whole new gearbox - put it on, and no difference. I suppose that one could be faulty too.
I find it hard to believe it could be the water pump - I have tested it with a completely different one that I bought - off a completely different engine - same result.
But - never the less - that last test tells me it must be the water pump (its useless doing a test if you are going to ignore the results).
To recap:
With the gearbox/waterpump off the engine, and a pipe connecting the output from the water pump to the bottom of the water pipe -spin it with a drill (and the engine not running) - no water from the Tell-Tale - block the little vent hole on the side - water from the Tell-Tale.
That tells me - (can you hear my frustration??)
1: The entire system is clear - no blockages - because the water pump will (if I block the little vent hole) pump water through the hole system and out of the Tell-Tale.
2: The Water Pump is not putting out enough pressure to push water through the system with the vent open.
3: It doesn't seem to have anything to do with exhaust back pressure, because the engine is not running during this test.
So really - I'm right back where I started - no water coming out of the Tell-Tale.
In theory - it's simple:
I will rig up a little system where there is definitely no leak and repeat the test. If I get water from the Tell-Tale, I will then try it with the engine running.
I am taking the engine with me, but I will not have all my tools, so I guess there is a limit to the amount of work I will be able to do on it while I am away, but the investigation continues.
I can't thank you guys enough for all your help - I hope we are all learning something.
I can't believe I haven't got to the bottom of this yet. Well I can believe I haven't, but I can't believe the combined thoughts of this whole forum hasn't, and I think I have given everybody's ideas a good hearing and test. But the reality is, its a fairly simple system - water goes in one end, goes through a bunch of pipes/tubes, and comes out the other end. Why can't we solve this?
Every time I do a new test, my theories change.
My most recent tests make me think the Water Pump itself is to blame - but I don't know if you remember, I have tried not only a whole new water pump, but an entirely different gearbox/waterpump section - I was so confident it was the water pump I went out and bough a whole new gearbox - put it on, and no difference. I suppose that one could be faulty too.
I find it hard to believe it could be the water pump - I have tested it with a completely different one that I bought - off a completely different engine - same result.
But - never the less - that last test tells me it must be the water pump (its useless doing a test if you are going to ignore the results).
To recap:
With the gearbox/waterpump off the engine, and a pipe connecting the output from the water pump to the bottom of the water pipe -spin it with a drill (and the engine not running) - no water from the Tell-Tale - block the little vent hole on the side - water from the Tell-Tale.
That tells me - (can you hear my frustration??)
1: The entire system is clear - no blockages - because the water pump will (if I block the little vent hole) pump water through the hole system and out of the Tell-Tale.
2: The Water Pump is not putting out enough pressure to push water through the system with the vent open.
3: It doesn't seem to have anything to do with exhaust back pressure, because the engine is not running during this test.
So really - I'm right back where I started - no water coming out of the Tell-Tale.
In theory - it's simple:
- Not enough pressure pushing water up, or
- Too much pressure pushing water back down (even with engine not running).
I will rig up a little system where there is definitely no leak and repeat the test. If I get water from the Tell-Tale, I will then try it with the engine running.
I am taking the engine with me, but I will not have all my tools, so I guess there is a limit to the amount of work I will be able to do on it while I am away, but the investigation continues.
I can't thank you guys enough for all your help - I hope we are all learning something.
Polybus
New member
I haven't given up on the little Mariner. And there has been a little progress, a very little.
I am now out working at a place called Broken Hill, about 13 hours drive West of Sydney. The engine is at a place called Forbes, about 4 1/2 hours drive West of Sydney.
Last time I was working in Forbes, I took the Engine with me and ran into a retired chap who had a small engine/outboard repair shop for over 40 years. I explain what I was up against with this engine, what I'd done, and the results. I issued him a challenge, and he accepted.
First step was to test it - no change, still ran well, but no water from the tell-tale.
So off with the gear box and check the pump. He felt the output from the water pump, when turned by a drill, was certainly adequate, but not brilliant. He also screwed a small self tapping screw into the small hole in the side of 5he pump that we have discussed so much. This seemed to more than double the pumps output. He seemed well satisfied with that.
Then off with the Power Head. He seemed unhappy with the new gasket I had put on. He thought it may not have been sealing properly. So stripped the gasket off, gave both mating surfaces a good clean and strip of all old gasket material, then flatten. Then installed new (original) gasket, with gasket Sealer and reassemble.
Test......no water from Tell-Tale. He seemed surprised. I wasn't.
All this testing has played havoc on the (new) impeller, it's looking decidedly used and beat up. All the vanes are still in tact, but looking bent and worn.
He has suggested a new impeller. I have ordered one, and next time I am back in Forbes, it will be installed. It will make no difference..... Looking at the amount of water it is currently pumping out, I would be stunned if that was not sufficient.
But the good news is, this chap has taken the engine's refusal to work after him saying it would as a direct and personal insult. And he is now just as keen as us to get it going. He is very confident......but then again, so was I three months ago.
So I will be back in Forbes in 2 weeks for more work, and another go at the outboard. I almost feel guilty knowing how frustrated my new friend will be when the Tell-Tale refuses to spit water.
He has 40 years of experience in this sort of thing, I hope he finds why it's not working.
I will of course report all progress.
I am now out working at a place called Broken Hill, about 13 hours drive West of Sydney. The engine is at a place called Forbes, about 4 1/2 hours drive West of Sydney.
Last time I was working in Forbes, I took the Engine with me and ran into a retired chap who had a small engine/outboard repair shop for over 40 years. I explain what I was up against with this engine, what I'd done, and the results. I issued him a challenge, and he accepted.
First step was to test it - no change, still ran well, but no water from the tell-tale.
So off with the gear box and check the pump. He felt the output from the water pump, when turned by a drill, was certainly adequate, but not brilliant. He also screwed a small self tapping screw into the small hole in the side of 5he pump that we have discussed so much. This seemed to more than double the pumps output. He seemed well satisfied with that.
Then off with the Power Head. He seemed unhappy with the new gasket I had put on. He thought it may not have been sealing properly. So stripped the gasket off, gave both mating surfaces a good clean and strip of all old gasket material, then flatten. Then installed new (original) gasket, with gasket Sealer and reassemble.
Test......no water from Tell-Tale. He seemed surprised. I wasn't.
All this testing has played havoc on the (new) impeller, it's looking decidedly used and beat up. All the vanes are still in tact, but looking bent and worn.
He has suggested a new impeller. I have ordered one, and next time I am back in Forbes, it will be installed. It will make no difference..... Looking at the amount of water it is currently pumping out, I would be stunned if that was not sufficient.
But the good news is, this chap has taken the engine's refusal to work after him saying it would as a direct and personal insult. And he is now just as keen as us to get it going. He is very confident......but then again, so was I three months ago.
So I will be back in Forbes in 2 weeks for more work, and another go at the outboard. I almost feel guilty knowing how frustrated my new friend will be when the Tell-Tale refuses to spit water.
He has 40 years of experience in this sort of thing, I hope he finds why it's not working.
I will of course report all progress.
Mark-1
Well-known member
Thanks for the update!
Blueboatman
Well-known member
I reckon I might be looking for a part blocked water way inside the engine creating weird cooling flow then that is preventing water dripping from the tell take
Maybe ?
Good poke around with coat hanger wires and a air compressor
Your new engineering friend sounds methodical ??
By the way I just bought one of these ( thank you Rob) and did a precautionary strip down and service, removing and greasing every bolt, shift mechanism etc etc.
With the exception of the fiddly re attachment of the water feed pipe, there’s not so much to go wrong.
I once bought a Mariner 5 that had sat in a well all season every season and I was suspicious enough of that to strip it and defurr the waterways and piddler route
I wonder , has someone modified yours by adding a diy thermostat or other restrictor?
I am told that th 3.3 is designed to run at 2/3 throttle , below that there is no adjustable timing nor..thermostat so perhaps someone didn’t like the idea of it running cold at low revs??
Either way, perhaps if you find out why it seized that may help too
Good luck
Maybe ?
Good poke around with coat hanger wires and a air compressor
Your new engineering friend sounds methodical ??
By the way I just bought one of these ( thank you Rob) and did a precautionary strip down and service, removing and greasing every bolt, shift mechanism etc etc.
With the exception of the fiddly re attachment of the water feed pipe, there’s not so much to go wrong.
I once bought a Mariner 5 that had sat in a well all season every season and I was suspicious enough of that to strip it and defurr the waterways and piddler route
I wonder , has someone modified yours by adding a diy thermostat or other restrictor?
I am told that th 3.3 is designed to run at 2/3 throttle , below that there is no adjustable timing nor..thermostat so perhaps someone didn’t like the idea of it running cold at low revs??
Either way, perhaps if you find out why it seized that may help too
Good luck
Mark-1
Well-known member
Polybus
New member
OK - it has been a bit too long between updates....so here we go.
Short story - its still not working.
Once again, I am in a different time zone to the little 3.3. It is still out at Forbes with the Retired Small Engine mechanic, and I am in Sydney (approx 4 1/2 hours away).
Not a great deal has happened since my last update, except for Chrissy, New Year, being locked up like a felon due to this stupid Political response we have had to COVID here.
So:
We tested the new impeller.......no difference. Once again - my friend seemed to take this as a direct and person insult - Outboard Motor to him. I on the other hand just accepted it as the usual bad behaviour normally displayed by this tempestuous beast.
Off with the power head again. Once again he questioned the seal around the gasket where the PowerHead meets with the leg. He said he felt they may not be meeting properly, and given that he himself gave it a forensic level clean and attached the new gasket himself, he concluded that perhaps there is an ever so slight warp in either the face of the powerhead, or the leg. He is of the opinion that he can *possibly* see evidence of leaking through the gasket, either exhaust and/or water. I see the marks he points out to me, but hey - I'm no expert, and as we all know, I am stumped.
So both sides are currently in the process of being shaved in a Mill to ensure they are dead flat (its not costing me anything!!! This chap is calling in a favour at a friend's engineering shop).
Once again - I am dubious. I mean we are all aware of the dangers of warped surfaces, and I did do my best to flatten them both off before I originally assembled the engine. I used Wet and Dry on a large piece of glass to ensure it was flat. Anyway - once it comes off the Mill, it is guaranteed to be flat and we will try again. I am dubious.
I am going out there again next Monday, so hopefully I should have more to report when I get back - in 2 weeks.
I hate to sound pessimistic, but this thing has battered me into submission. SOMETHING has to be wrong, and hence once it it identified and fixed - joy will once again return to my existence.
Really there are only about 5 things to go wrong.
I am not sure if I have posted this before - but you can see some of the history of this engine on my Website.
1001 Ways to Waste Time
You can check out any of my projects, but for the Engine - scroll down to the Bottom, you will see the Outboard Section at the very bottom right, click that and you see sections for British Seagulls and the Mariner 3.3 - Click that to see a few photos of this engine - I have not updated it in quote a while, but you will see its history. And you will wonder why I am bothering.
Short story - its still not working.
Once again, I am in a different time zone to the little 3.3. It is still out at Forbes with the Retired Small Engine mechanic, and I am in Sydney (approx 4 1/2 hours away).
Not a great deal has happened since my last update, except for Chrissy, New Year, being locked up like a felon due to this stupid Political response we have had to COVID here.
So:
We tested the new impeller.......no difference. Once again - my friend seemed to take this as a direct and person insult - Outboard Motor to him. I on the other hand just accepted it as the usual bad behaviour normally displayed by this tempestuous beast.
Off with the power head again. Once again he questioned the seal around the gasket where the PowerHead meets with the leg. He said he felt they may not be meeting properly, and given that he himself gave it a forensic level clean and attached the new gasket himself, he concluded that perhaps there is an ever so slight warp in either the face of the powerhead, or the leg. He is of the opinion that he can *possibly* see evidence of leaking through the gasket, either exhaust and/or water. I see the marks he points out to me, but hey - I'm no expert, and as we all know, I am stumped.
So both sides are currently in the process of being shaved in a Mill to ensure they are dead flat (its not costing me anything!!! This chap is calling in a favour at a friend's engineering shop).
Once again - I am dubious. I mean we are all aware of the dangers of warped surfaces, and I did do my best to flatten them both off before I originally assembled the engine. I used Wet and Dry on a large piece of glass to ensure it was flat. Anyway - once it comes off the Mill, it is guaranteed to be flat and we will try again. I am dubious.
I am going out there again next Monday, so hopefully I should have more to report when I get back - in 2 weeks.
I hate to sound pessimistic, but this thing has battered me into submission. SOMETHING has to be wrong, and hence once it it identified and fixed - joy will once again return to my existence.
Really there are only about 5 things to go wrong.
- The water intake - which is clear, and checked 100 times.
- The water pump/impeller - functioning - tried two different legs/pumps, and now 3 different impellers, 1 used and 2 new
- The water pipe taking the water up from the Water Pump to the Water Galleries at th bottom of the power head - checked 50 times - clear
- The Water Galleries/Jacket themselves - checked and clear
- The Hole in the head leading to the Tell Tale Pipe - both checked and clear
I am not sure if I have posted this before - but you can see some of the history of this engine on my Website.
1001 Ways to Waste Time
You can check out any of my projects, but for the Engine - scroll down to the Bottom, you will see the Outboard Section at the very bottom right, click that and you see sections for British Seagulls and the Mariner 3.3 - Click that to see a few photos of this engine - I have not updated it in quote a while, but you will see its history. And you will wonder why I am bothering.
Mark-1
Well-known member
Thanks for the update. Your posts on this have been superb winter entertainment. Will check out your website next quiet moment.
