davel
Well-Known Member
Following on from an earlier thread. Does anyone have any experience of using this unit? Does it work?
MegaPulse
- Thread starter davel
- Start date
Malish
Well-Known Member
There is an older thread (or two). Have a look at:
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/1615945/page/0/fpart/1/vc/1
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/1615945/page/0/fpart/1/vc/1
davel
Well-Known Member
Thanks for that reference.
It's a pretty good thread.
It's a pretty good thread.
jimbaerselman
Well-Known Member
No experience of megapulse, but I researched this many moons ago with battery manufacturers. Their advice was to apply a very high voltage (16 - 18v) for periods of time, while monitoring temperature to make sure there's no boiling risk.
I quote from Bill Darden's excellent battery faq site, 'How to Desulphate Batteries':
[ QUOTE ]
16.3.2.2. Use a desulfator, pulse charger or desulfating mode on a battery charger. A list of some desulfator or pulse charger manufacturers is available on the Battery References Links List at http://www.batteryfaq.org. Please note that despite desulfator manufacturers' claims, some battery experts feel that desulfators or pulse chargers do not work any better at removing permanent or preventing sulfation than do constant voltage chargers.
[/ QUOTE ]
I quote from Bill Darden's excellent battery faq site, 'How to Desulphate Batteries':
[ QUOTE ]
16.3.2.2. Use a desulfator, pulse charger or desulfating mode on a battery charger. A list of some desulfator or pulse charger manufacturers is available on the Battery References Links List at http://www.batteryfaq.org. Please note that despite desulfator manufacturers' claims, some battery experts feel that desulfators or pulse chargers do not work any better at removing permanent or preventing sulfation than do constant voltage chargers.
[/ QUOTE ]
vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
I bought the Courtiestown device after seeing this thread, It has transformed my battery condition. Whereas my Sterling unit would previously go into float mode at 14.2 volts, after a session with the pulser it now accepts 14.4 volts before floating. Overnight voltage previously fell to about 11.8 or 11.9, whereas after treatment it was mostly 12.1 V.
IMHO a very worthwhile investment for the small outlay of less than £40.
IMHO a very worthwhile investment for the small outlay of less than £40.
VicS
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Overnight voltage previously fell to about 11.8 or 11.9, whereas after treatment it was mostly 12.1 V
[/ QUOTE ] If you mean that overnight the volts fall to 12.1 from fully charged with no load then that still is not very good.
A good battery should still be showing around 12.7 after being fully charged and rested for 12hours. 12.2 is a about half charged.
I'd be somewhat disappointed rather than rate it as a "very worthwhile investment".
Perhaps it will continue to improve with further desulphation.
Overnight voltage previously fell to about 11.8 or 11.9, whereas after treatment it was mostly 12.1 V
[/ QUOTE ] If you mean that overnight the volts fall to 12.1 from fully charged with no load then that still is not very good.
A good battery should still be showing around 12.7 after being fully charged and rested for 12hours. 12.2 is a about half charged.
I'd be somewhat disappointed rather than rate it as a "very worthwhile investment".
Perhaps it will continue to improve with further desulphation.
vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
That's with a refrigerator running 24 hours per day, lights, music, possibly an evening showing of a DVD.
A
Anonymous
Guest
[ QUOTE ]
I bought the Courtiestown device after seeing this thread, It has transformed my battery condition. Whereas my Sterling unit would previously go into float mode at 14.2 volts, after a session with the pulser it now accepts 14.4 volts before floating.
[/ QUOTE ]Something is not quite right about that. The charger is the driver, and it is the charger that 'decides' what voltage to limit the equalisation charge to, before falling back to the float. [ QUOTE ]
Overnight voltage previously fell to about 11.8 or 11.9, whereas after treatment it was mostly 12.1 V
[/ QUOTE ] Coupled with the earlier observation about 14.2 increasing to 14.4, are you sure that the voltmeter hasn't simply changed calibration by 200mV, or been connected to a different point in the circuit?
Mind you, I have also had good results from my Megapulse so I am not saying you haven't got an improvement, I am only questioning the measurements.
I bought the Courtiestown device after seeing this thread, It has transformed my battery condition. Whereas my Sterling unit would previously go into float mode at 14.2 volts, after a session with the pulser it now accepts 14.4 volts before floating.
[/ QUOTE ]Something is not quite right about that. The charger is the driver, and it is the charger that 'decides' what voltage to limit the equalisation charge to, before falling back to the float. [ QUOTE ]
Overnight voltage previously fell to about 11.8 or 11.9, whereas after treatment it was mostly 12.1 V
[/ QUOTE ] Coupled with the earlier observation about 14.2 increasing to 14.4, are you sure that the voltmeter hasn't simply changed calibration by 200mV, or been connected to a different point in the circuit?
Mind you, I have also had good results from my Megapulse so I am not saying you haven't got an improvement, I am only questioning the measurements.
colinroybarrett
Well-Known Member
Lemain,
Vyv’s been running his ‘Fox’ system of fridge and solar panels for five years or more to my knowledge and I know he would not quote here unless he was absolutely SURE of his facts.
Now guys, my batteries are at least 5 years old and I’m getting worried, so do I buy a can of ‘snake oil’ to put in the cells, or one of the ‘Megapulse’ type kits at a few ‘bob’ to obviate the possible upcoming expense of replacing four x 120A/Hours at €mega?
Vyv’s been running his ‘Fox’ system of fridge and solar panels for five years or more to my knowledge and I know he would not quote here unless he was absolutely SURE of his facts.
Now guys, my batteries are at least 5 years old and I’m getting worried, so do I buy a can of ‘snake oil’ to put in the cells, or one of the ‘Megapulse’ type kits at a few ‘bob’ to obviate the possible upcoming expense of replacing four x 120A/Hours at €mega?
VicS
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
so do I buy a can of ‘snake oil’ to put in the cells
[/ QUOTE ] Some more reports on EDTA to desulphate batteries would be nice to support, or contradict, Leadersail's, experiences. Why not give that a try and let us know the results.
so do I buy a can of ‘snake oil’ to put in the cells
[/ QUOTE ] Some more reports on EDTA to desulphate batteries would be nice to support, or contradict, Leadersail's, experiences. Why not give that a try and let us know the results.
simon_sluggett
Well-Known Member
Dont these these devices work by applying a reverse polarity burst of power for milliseconds reversing the chemical process and returning the sulphate to its liquid state . Applying a higher voltage than normally allowed for charging would only be likely damage the battery.
Pulsers only improve a batteries performance if its badly sulphated. Also it will help to prevent it building up in the first place on a new battery.
Cant tell if they really work yet as I only had mine couple of weeks but why would sterling et al build them into their battery chargers if they didnt work.
Go for the courtiestown marine one its good value.
The high power microprocessor based one is only 37 quid delivered (or cheaper if you want to assemble it yourself). No connection but
satisfied customer.
Pulsers only improve a batteries performance if its badly sulphated. Also it will help to prevent it building up in the first place on a new battery.
Cant tell if they really work yet as I only had mine couple of weeks but why would sterling et al build them into their battery chargers if they didnt work.
Go for the courtiestown marine one its good value.
The high power microprocessor based one is only 37 quid delivered (or cheaper if you want to assemble it yourself). No connection but
satisfied customer.
A
Anonymous
Guest
[ QUOTE ]
Now guys, my batteries are at least 5 years old and I’m getting worried, so do I buy a can of ‘snake oil’ to put in the cells, or one of the ‘Megapulse’ type kits at a few ‘bob’ to obviate the possible upcoming expense of replacing four x 120A/Hours at €mega?
[/ QUOTE ]Batteries fail due to mechanical problems and ageing as well as sulphation. As batteries charge and discharge the cells expand and contract, and bits of cell material fall to the bottom, reducing the total amount of active material usable. Sometimes bits of cell fall off and short out a cell, which is terminal for the battery (forgive the pun /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif). Sometimes (but less commonly) the battery goes open circuit.
I think that there is enough known about pulsers now to recommend them for all installations BUT they can cause terrible noise on radios - especially SSB, Navtex, weatherfax and RTTY. I have mine set so I can turn it off remotely. I have done that through a relay to avoid bringing the pulsing wires all the way back from the battery - i.e. the relay interrupts the pulser local to the pulser and the wires coming back to the switchboard are dc and short circuit protected.
If your batteries are five years old and still giving good service I would fit a good pulser (I don't know which is best, I fitted the MegaPulse) and replace the batteries when they die, leaving the pulser in place. I will never, ever, mess about with EDTA in my batteries. I don't want to get involved with topping up with H2SO4 on board and while I have flooded batteries I don't own a hydrometer. What would I do with the information from the hydrometer? I know when they are fully charged from the voltage and current, which I measure and I am not going to do anything about irreversible sulphation anyway. H2SO4 is the most horribly corrosive substance in the boat and you need to keep every drip - every tiny speck - in the battery and not out.
EDTA is a last ditch attempt to salvage a battery that you cannot salvage by use of the pulser alone and if you follow the links posted earlier in the thread (there is one quite good one) you will see that it isn't easy going.
Now guys, my batteries are at least 5 years old and I’m getting worried, so do I buy a can of ‘snake oil’ to put in the cells, or one of the ‘Megapulse’ type kits at a few ‘bob’ to obviate the possible upcoming expense of replacing four x 120A/Hours at €mega?
[/ QUOTE ]Batteries fail due to mechanical problems and ageing as well as sulphation. As batteries charge and discharge the cells expand and contract, and bits of cell material fall to the bottom, reducing the total amount of active material usable. Sometimes bits of cell fall off and short out a cell, which is terminal for the battery (forgive the pun /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif). Sometimes (but less commonly) the battery goes open circuit.
I think that there is enough known about pulsers now to recommend them for all installations BUT they can cause terrible noise on radios - especially SSB, Navtex, weatherfax and RTTY. I have mine set so I can turn it off remotely. I have done that through a relay to avoid bringing the pulsing wires all the way back from the battery - i.e. the relay interrupts the pulser local to the pulser and the wires coming back to the switchboard are dc and short circuit protected.
If your batteries are five years old and still giving good service I would fit a good pulser (I don't know which is best, I fitted the MegaPulse) and replace the batteries when they die, leaving the pulser in place. I will never, ever, mess about with EDTA in my batteries. I don't want to get involved with topping up with H2SO4 on board and while I have flooded batteries I don't own a hydrometer. What would I do with the information from the hydrometer? I know when they are fully charged from the voltage and current, which I measure and I am not going to do anything about irreversible sulphation anyway. H2SO4 is the most horribly corrosive substance in the boat and you need to keep every drip - every tiny speck - in the battery and not out.
EDTA is a last ditch attempt to salvage a battery that you cannot salvage by use of the pulser alone and if you follow the links posted earlier in the thread (there is one quite good one) you will see that it isn't easy going.
A
Anonymous
Guest
[ QUOTE ]
Cant tell if they really work yet as I only had mine couple of weeks but why would sterling et al build them into their battery chargers if they didnt work
[/ QUOTE ]The last time I checked the facts of that, Sterling did NOT include pulser technology in its products. Charles Sterling has stated that pulsers are not needed if you use his chargers (which are identical to everyone else's chargers as it happens). He is wrong. Yacht batteries have heavy cycling compared with an automotive battery and they do tend to sulphate in time.
Of course it is possible that Sterling have now reversed their policy and fitted pulsers but they hadn't up to a few months ago, so you need to check.
I am puzzled how you can be a satisfied customer if you only fitted yours a couple of weeks ago?
Cant tell if they really work yet as I only had mine couple of weeks but why would sterling et al build them into their battery chargers if they didnt work
[/ QUOTE ]The last time I checked the facts of that, Sterling did NOT include pulser technology in its products. Charles Sterling has stated that pulsers are not needed if you use his chargers (which are identical to everyone else's chargers as it happens). He is wrong. Yacht batteries have heavy cycling compared with an automotive battery and they do tend to sulphate in time.
Of course it is possible that Sterling have now reversed their policy and fitted pulsers but they hadn't up to a few months ago, so you need to check.
I am puzzled how you can be a satisfied customer if you only fitted yours a couple of weeks ago?
leadersail
Well-Known Member
Re: into the Lions den
This is how I added EDTA+
Half empty a 1 L battery water bottle.
Pour in 1/2 cup of EDTA+ powder into bottle.
shake well, leave in warm place for 1/2 hour shake well.
squirt edta+ into each and every cell, keep squirting until dived between the batteries.
replace caps.
then recharge and keep on charge /normal discharge cycles.
It is not hard work to do.
If all your cells are full and will not accept 44ml then it will take longer as you have to remove some acid.
If I am wrong and edta+ is only a snake oil placebo, I apologise but on a positive note you will have only wasted £6 and a bit of time.
EDTA+ is unlikely to do any damage as my batteries have continued in service for 7 years after the dose, only 1 failed after I left a spanner over the terminals while fitting an inverter, that is the only battery I have ever had to replace.
If I ever do need to buy a new battery in the future I will put EDTA+ in to start will.
there is mention of a reduced capacity with EDTA+, there could be in theory but in my experience
*******
100ah with edta+ only gives 90ah for 7+ years
100 ah 12 month old and part sulfated gives 70 ah reducing to 30ah in 2 years
******
EDTA+ softens the sulfate which makes it more readily available to release electrical current which could explain why an immediate (overnight charge) dose gives a crisp start in the morning .
* no evidence, just ascertained from how long it takes cabin lights to dim when at anchor
This is how I added EDTA+
Half empty a 1 L battery water bottle.
Pour in 1/2 cup of EDTA+ powder into bottle.
shake well, leave in warm place for 1/2 hour shake well.
squirt edta+ into each and every cell, keep squirting until dived between the batteries.
replace caps.
then recharge and keep on charge /normal discharge cycles.
It is not hard work to do.
If all your cells are full and will not accept 44ml then it will take longer as you have to remove some acid.
If I am wrong and edta+ is only a snake oil placebo, I apologise but on a positive note you will have only wasted £6 and a bit of time.
EDTA+ is unlikely to do any damage as my batteries have continued in service for 7 years after the dose, only 1 failed after I left a spanner over the terminals while fitting an inverter, that is the only battery I have ever had to replace.
If I ever do need to buy a new battery in the future I will put EDTA+ in to start will.
there is mention of a reduced capacity with EDTA+, there could be in theory but in my experience
*******
100ah with edta+ only gives 90ah for 7+ years
100 ah 12 month old and part sulfated gives 70 ah reducing to 30ah in 2 years
******
EDTA+ softens the sulfate which makes it more readily available to release electrical current which could explain why an immediate (overnight charge) dose gives a crisp start in the morning .
* no evidence, just ascertained from how long it takes cabin lights to dim when at anchor
leadersail
Well-Known Member
Re: into the Lions den
Isn't a mega pulse just one more thing to go wrong, an extra fire source at the side of flammable gas ?
Never mind the drain of power.
http://www.courtiestown.co.uk/batteries/shop.htm
Isn't a mega pulse just one more thing to go wrong, an extra fire source at the side of flammable gas ?
Never mind the drain of power.
http://www.courtiestown.co.uk/batteries/shop.htm
jimbaerselman
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Dont these these devices work by applying a reverse polarity burst of power for milliseconds reversing the chemical process and returning the sulphate to its liquid state . Applying a higher voltage than normally allowed for charging would only be likely damage the battery.
[/ QUOTE ] I don't think reverse polarity is the point, but I could be out of date. I'm now repeating from notes made after I did a detailed investigation some 10 years ago. Pre web really . . . forgive me if there were errors in that investigation. Then:
All battery manufactureres agreed that de-sulphation requires charge voltages above 14v, around 16v to 18v, though some recommended even higher voltages.
All manufacturerers are aware that this creates two problems, in that the batteries will become dangerously hot after a significant time (minutes, or tens of minutes, depending on voltage) and will also gas considerably after quite a short time (tens of seconds or minutes, depending on voltage).
Rather than manual 'pulsing' (switching off to allow temperature recovery) several inventors had developed automatic switch cycling systems. This handled the heat problem, but gassing remained a problem.
More inventors later reduced the pulse times so that there was insufficient time during a pulse for gassing to occur. Some went so far as to quote 'battery natural frequencies'.
Those manufacturers I contacted some five years ago said that there had been very little comparative testing of the various methods, all would work, but the key factor was the amount of volts over 15v, summed over time. Their position was, quite simply, that only high volts over time would break down the oversized crystals of lead sulphate. The higher the volts, the less the time.
If you can accept gassing, just replace the lost water. but don't allow the battery to overheat (sorry, didn't note, and can't remember, the critical temperature).
Dont these these devices work by applying a reverse polarity burst of power for milliseconds reversing the chemical process and returning the sulphate to its liquid state . Applying a higher voltage than normally allowed for charging would only be likely damage the battery.
[/ QUOTE ] I don't think reverse polarity is the point, but I could be out of date. I'm now repeating from notes made after I did a detailed investigation some 10 years ago. Pre web really . . . forgive me if there were errors in that investigation. Then:
All battery manufactureres agreed that de-sulphation requires charge voltages above 14v, around 16v to 18v, though some recommended even higher voltages.
All manufacturerers are aware that this creates two problems, in that the batteries will become dangerously hot after a significant time (minutes, or tens of minutes, depending on voltage) and will also gas considerably after quite a short time (tens of seconds or minutes, depending on voltage).
Rather than manual 'pulsing' (switching off to allow temperature recovery) several inventors had developed automatic switch cycling systems. This handled the heat problem, but gassing remained a problem.
More inventors later reduced the pulse times so that there was insufficient time during a pulse for gassing to occur. Some went so far as to quote 'battery natural frequencies'.
Those manufacturers I contacted some five years ago said that there had been very little comparative testing of the various methods, all would work, but the key factor was the amount of volts over 15v, summed over time. Their position was, quite simply, that only high volts over time would break down the oversized crystals of lead sulphate. The higher the volts, the less the time.
If you can accept gassing, just replace the lost water. but don't allow the battery to overheat (sorry, didn't note, and can't remember, the critical temperature).
vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
<<< The last time I checked the facts of that, Sterling did NOT include pulser technology in its products. >>
Sterling's advertisements for their ProPulse device say ' This device is not required if you have a Pro Digital battery charger or any other advanced Sterling charger product connected to your batteries as they have a desulphation cycle built into their software program.'
Nonetheless, as I spend days at a time not charging with the engine I decided to invest in a pulser, which has proved very effective, as detailed above.
Sterling's advertisements for their ProPulse device say ' This device is not required if you have a Pro Digital battery charger or any other advanced Sterling charger product connected to your batteries as they have a desulphation cycle built into their software program.'
Nonetheless, as I spend days at a time not charging with the engine I decided to invest in a pulser, which has proved very effective, as detailed above.
vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
Time flies, Colin. My original panel has been installed for eleven years now!
I have recovered totally dead batteries with EDTA in a laboratory. It involves emptying all the acid, refilling for a soak period with EDTA solution, then refilling with sulphuric acid. Not something I would want to do in my workshop and definitely not on board. In the cases I am quoting the effect was fairly temporary, back in the days when another couple of days of starting the car brought around next payday.
Cheers, Vyv
I have recovered totally dead batteries with EDTA in a laboratory. It involves emptying all the acid, refilling for a soak period with EDTA solution, then refilling with sulphuric acid. Not something I would want to do in my workshop and definitely not on board. In the cases I am quoting the effect was fairly temporary, back in the days when another couple of days of starting the car brought around next payday.
Cheers, Vyv
A
Anonymous
Guest
[ QUOTE ]
Sterling's advertisements for their ProPulse device say ' This device is not required if you have a Pro Digital battery charger or any other advanced Sterling charger product connected to your batteries as they have a desulphation cycle built into their software program.
[/ QUOTE ]Hmmmm, yes, I read that a while back but when you look at the Pro Digital kit which, they say, does not require a pulser you see the following (from their advanced regulator manual)....
[ QUOTE ]
<span style="color:blue"> The good thing about a constant current charger is that it de-sulphates the battery plates ensuring maximum life from the batteries. However,
this only works if the charger is switched on/off regularly (i.e. every time you disconnect and reconnect the charger the plates are subjected to
a de-sulphation cycle). The problem is some boats or standby equipment may be rarely used,
for example:, a boat could be moored all year and never leave the pontoon, or a stand by generator with the charger on all the time. In these
cases the de-sulphation cycle would only happen once and the batteries would eventually sulphate causing premature destruction. However
the Sterling software has a 7 day timer which in the event of inactivity will automatically run a de-sulphation cycle keeping your plates clean.</span>
[/ QUOTE ] So the very clear inference is that the Pro Digital kit does not contain a pulser but in the view of Sterling will overcome sulphation by a different technique - i.e. constant current charging to a high level. I am far from persuaded that this type of charging is sufficient to avoid sulphation but in any case, the point is that the Pro Digital kit appears not to contain a pulser of the sort we are discussing here.
Sterling's advertisements for their ProPulse device say ' This device is not required if you have a Pro Digital battery charger or any other advanced Sterling charger product connected to your batteries as they have a desulphation cycle built into their software program.
[/ QUOTE ]Hmmmm, yes, I read that a while back but when you look at the Pro Digital kit which, they say, does not require a pulser you see the following (from their advanced regulator manual)....
[ QUOTE ]
<span style="color:blue"> The good thing about a constant current charger is that it de-sulphates the battery plates ensuring maximum life from the batteries. However,
this only works if the charger is switched on/off regularly (i.e. every time you disconnect and reconnect the charger the plates are subjected to
a de-sulphation cycle). The problem is some boats or standby equipment may be rarely used,
for example:, a boat could be moored all year and never leave the pontoon, or a stand by generator with the charger on all the time. In these
cases the de-sulphation cycle would only happen once and the batteries would eventually sulphate causing premature destruction. However
the Sterling software has a 7 day timer which in the event of inactivity will automatically run a de-sulphation cycle keeping your plates clean.</span>
[/ QUOTE ] So the very clear inference is that the Pro Digital kit does not contain a pulser but in the view of Sterling will overcome sulphation by a different technique - i.e. constant current charging to a high level. I am far from persuaded that this type of charging is sufficient to avoid sulphation but in any case, the point is that the Pro Digital kit appears not to contain a pulser of the sort we are discussing here.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Jim, the MegaPulse only draws a mean 50mA or so and cannot possibly make even small batteries hot. I had my MegaPulse on a small 7Ah torch sealed gel lead acid (was completely knackered and would not take enough charge to make the bulb glimmer) and now the torch is fine. I haven't checked the actual Ah but the torch is OK and that's what it's all about. The little battery was stone cold all the way through.
