Med boaters - will you get to your boat this year?

[Portofino]

Not been above 1800 rpm this season.

Is something not buttoned tight ? What works been done recently?

 

[MapisM]

It’s not the filters, it’s the block that the filters are bolted on to, I’ve had a very good MAN engineer with his head down there and seen the oil leaking, very common problem, the engineer said I should change them both, even if they are not leaking yet.

Yep, I understand - that's what I called the filters assembly (for lack of better wording), on the right side of your pic.
If so, that's good news, and not a huge deal - aside from the bad timing vs. your holidays!

As an aside, it's interesting to hear that according to your engineer that's a common problem, 'cause I never heard of it - and I spoke to quite a few MAN chaps about the strengths and weaknesses of these engines.
As opposed to the crankcase/timing box joint, where a sudden oil leak out of the blue is not unheard of, particularly in boats where by design the shaft alignment is crucial (as I think it is with Arnesons), because even the smallest vibration is directly transferred to the g/box and from there to the block, with the timing case in between. Less so with V-drives instead, for obvious reasons.

BTW, I don't think that how hard you ran the boat is what really matters, with this type of seal failures.
It's something more triggered by mechanical (friction, vibrations, etc,) rather than load or temperature issues.

PS: while your engineer will replace those bits on both sides, you might be interested to ask him about the remote oil filters kit.
That's a MAN optional accessory designed to move the oil filters on the opposite side of the engine.
I'm not familiar with your e/r, but I can easily guess that (unless you already have this kit), replacing the filters on stbd engine is a PITA, because they are on the external side rather than in between the engines, where they normally are in port engine.

 

[Portofino]

Vibrations rise in a none linear way with rpm , and heat cycles have a greater range the higher rpm and hotter it gets .
Weakest oil seal goes first .

I recall Chris mentioning when he got the boat he has never seen manufacturers rpm at WOT , put it down to fouled sterngear. The Arnesons are brutal on engines load and EGTs .Get the trim wrong and the motor is running in a constant state of overload even down the lower rpm range .

It amazing watching the rise of oil temps coincide with load and EGTs .Can you MapishM + Chris see oil temps ?
The oil has a function of cooling the underside of the pistons and bores ( as well a lub ) .

Might be worth sticking a infra red / laser temp gauge on the oil coolers …..and comparing them .
Run it up , anchor quickly, turn them off and shoot in the ER with the IR gun and compare motors .

90 * C or there about actually 87 and falling by the time I get on them is what I see which mirrors the dash screens .
But worth checking ,

 

[Portofino]

Yep, I understand - that's what I called the filters assembly (for lack of better wording), on the right side of your pic.
If so, that's good news, and not a huge deal - aside from the bad timing vs. your holidays!

As an aside, it's interesting to hear that according to your engineer that's a common problem, 'cause I never heard of it - and I spoke to quite a few MAN chaps about the strengths and weaknesses of these engines.
As opposed to the crankcase/timing box joint, where a sudden oil leak out of the blue is not unheard of, particularly in boats where by design the shaft alignment is crucial (as I think it is with Arnesons), because even the smallest vibration is directly transferred to the g/box and from there to the block, with the timing case in between. Less so with V-drives instead, for obvious reasons.

BTW, I don't think that how hard you ran the boat is what really matters, with this type of seal failures.
It's something more triggered by mechanical (friction, vibrations, etc,) rather than load or temperature issues.

PS: while your engineer will replace those bits on both sides, you might be interested to ask him about the remote oil filters kit.
That's a MAN optional accessory designed to move the oil filters on the opposite side of the engine.
I'm not familiar with your e/r, but I can easily guess that (unless you already have this kit), replacing the filters on stbd engine is a PITA, because they are on the external side rather than in between the engines, where they normally are in port engine.

Is the leak you are talking about twit gear B and block the Rear Main Seal ( RMS ) ?
The RMS is the last seal where the shaft comes out of the block to join in this case the gear B .Virtually all engines have them .

Because another cause of vibration in V configuration ( not inline ) is uneven pressure or explosions on the two banks .This is an internal vibration, obviously not related to what ever the gear box is further connected , be it Arnesons or straight shafts or what ever say a vehicle.
In older motors without the electrotwackery injector malarkey and the diagnostic side that comes with said tech , it possible to chug along happily oblivious to say a injector issue causing a lower bang / pressure on a bank .
That will manifest in slight uneven running , not enough to be noticed at the helm , but enough to increase potentially damaging vibrations = the RMS goes .

In cars at clutch change with V s or other opposed say a flat 6 Porsche, you see the RMS weep ….so do it then while the gear box of out .It’s a none issue relative to a big boat motor as the g box and motor are able come apart easily in comparison .It’s a while we are in there job for a £30 part and an extra 30 mins Labour .

Modern machinery cars +big boat diesel motors have electrotwackery to throw a code , they can detect a cylinder not banging as it should . Injector opening times , fuel rail pressure etc etc .

Sorry to bring this up chaps but EGT s gauges on each bank would also identify a cylinder or two down .

When I run mine sync the rpms I see the EGT s for each motor within 5 degrees difference .Say at 1800 rpm .Port 563 *C and Stb 565*C , Also load exactly the same and fuel burn identical .

When I lost a sensor on one injector on cylinder 1 , stb motor the ECU switched to a generic algorithm for the fuelling.Tech said it was ok to use the boat , but don’t thrash it .
Without the sensor it cant see real time and just so uses the algorithm to do the injector opening times .So it’s no show stopper or reduced rpms or anything.You only get a alarm saying SE which is sensor error at start up which you can clear .It’s telling you .


While the “ SE “ was present for a few days waiting for the tech to return with the new part i noticed the load , fuel burn and EGT s were NOW for each side different if the rpms were synced, say EGT s 563 and 535 as an example.
It’s a inline 6 so unlike a V there’s no weak or dominant bank to vibrate the RMS .

 

[Chris H]

Yep, I understand - that's what I called the filters assembly (for lack of better wording), on the right side of your pic.
If so, that's good news, and not a huge deal - aside from the bad timing vs. your holidays!

As an aside, it's interesting to hear that according to your engineer that's a common problem, 'cause I never heard of it - and I spoke to quite a few MAN chaps about the strengths and weaknesses of these engines.
As opposed to the crankcase/timing box joint, where a sudden oil leak out of the blue is not unheard of, particularly in boats where by design the shaft alignment is crucial (as I think it is with Arnesons), because even the smallest vibration is directly transferred to the g/box and from there to the block, with the timing case in between. Less so with V-drives instead, for obvious reasons.

BTW, I don't think that how hard you ran the boat is what really matters, with this type of seal failures.
It's something more triggered by mechanical (friction, vibrations, etc,) rather than load or temperature issues.

PS: while your engineer will replace those bits on both sides, you might be interested to ask him about the remote oil filters kit.
That's a MAN optional accessory designed to move the oil filters on the opposite side of the engine.
I'm not familiar with your e/r, but I can easily guess that (unless you already have this kit), replacing the filters on stbd engine is a PITA, because they are on the external side rather than in between the engines, where they normally are in port engine.

It’s good news the engine doesn’t need to come out…..it’s still a £6k job ?
Theres just enough room on the stbd engine to get at everything.

 

[mcanderson]

Chris,

I used some excellent Italian engineers earlier this year who are based near San Remo. Let me know if you want the contact details.

Edit - here they are

 

[Portofino]

It’s good news the engine doesn’t need to come out…..it’s still a £6k job ?
Theres just enough room on the stbd engine to get at everything.

Out of interest who are you using Chris ?

 

[Chris H]

Out of interest who are you using Chris ?

Paolo Garbarino, he’s seen the leak and really seemed to know his stuff, once finished, he insisted the boat be lifted & cleaned, then he will put all his gauges/equipment on the engines and carry out a full sea trial to check and adjust everything.

 

[Portofino]

Paolo Garbarino, he’s seen the leak and really seemed to know his stuff, once finished, he insisted the boat be lifted & cleaned, then he will put all his gauges/equipment on the engines and carry out a full sea trial to check and adjust everything.

Great guy I used him to replace and set up my new exhausts in 2021 + Refurb my water pumps , overdue btw .

For the benefit of readers he works out of Imperia so local to Chris and runs a MAN master station .

@ Mcanderson Paolo works the CdA as well , a lot of Italians do . If you all recall I had my AC retro fitted by an ItalIan sparky when I was based in the CdA .The two other Fr quote guys weren’t listening to the requirements. Sunseeker Fr use this sparky , it’s them who put me in touch .He turns up and fixes stuff .


At least you won’t be paying much travel time ! If any .

 

[MapisM]

It’s good news the engine doesn’t need to come out…..it’s still a £6k job ?
Theres just enough room on the stbd engine to get at everything.

That does sound like a helluva lot.
Did your mechanic just give you that as a ballpark number, or do you already have an actual quotation?
If the latter, and if you don't mind me asking, which parts is he going to replace?

Out of idle curiosity, I checked my files, and I think what he's suggesting to replace is the "51.05501-7195" assembly.
Whose net price at my usual MAN parts supplier is just above 1k Eur a piece.
Now, knowing what we're talking about, that's an outrageous price, 'fiuaskme.
But there's still room for a rather good margin, between 2 and 7 thousands Eur (£6k being roughly €7k)...!

As an aside, I'm also rather skeptic that this part can be subject to cracks and/or deformations.
So, I'd be very much tempted to just replace the seal and see what happens.
I'm talking of part # "51.05901-0098", at a price of €16 (yes, sixteen).
I would even dare saying that if this wouldn't fix the problem, the wasted seal is on me...

 

[MapisM]

It amazing watching the rise of oil temps coincide with load and EGTs .Can you MapishM + Chris see oil temps ?

I can on my boat, but that used to be a boatbuilder's choice back in the days of mechanical engines, 'cause there was no MMDS display for engine controls. No idea about what Pershing did, though I'd guess they also fitted oil temp, among other gauges.

 

[Chris H]

That does sound like a helluva lot.
Did your mechanic just give you that as a ballpark number, or do you already have an actual quotation?
If the latter, and if you don't mind me asking, which parts is he going to replace?

Out of idle curiosity, I checked my files, and I think what he's suggesting to replace is the "51.05501-7195" assembly.
Whose net price at my usual MAN parts supplier is just above 1k Eur a piece.
Now, knowing what we're talking about, that's an outrageous price, 'fiuaskme.
But there's still room for a rather good margin, between 2 and 7 thousands Eur (£6k being roughly €7k)...!

As an aside, I'm also rather skeptic that this part can be subject to cracks and/or deformations.
So, I'd be very much tempted to just replace the seal and see what happens.
I'm talking of part # "51.05901-0098", at a price of €16 (yes, sixteen).
I would even dare saying that if this wouldn't fix the problem, the wasted seal is on me...

It’s the gasket that has failed but you have to remove lots of parts, and replace other gaskets/bolts.

 

[MapisM]

Is the leak you are talking about twit gear B and block the Rear Main Seal ( RMS ) ?
The RMS is the last seal where the shaft comes out of the block to join in this case the gear B .Virtually all engines have them.

I'm not sure of which seal you'd call RMS on the engine that is being debated, but the block is not directly mated to the gearbox.
In between them, there is the timing case, where the camshaft gear is connected to the crankshaft.
We'aren't taling of a car engine with overhead camshafts, you know...

 

[Chris H]

I'm not sure of which seal you'd call RMS on the engine that is being debated, but the block is not directly mated to the gearbox.
In between them, there is the timing case, where the camshaft gear is connected to the crankshaft.
We'aren't taling of a car engine with overhead camshafts, you know...

Porto will be paranoid about RMS, rear main seal, owning a Porsche ?
on the boat engine I think he’s talking about the crank shaft oil seal.

 

[Bouba]

Porto will be paranoid about RMS, rear main seal, owning a Porsche ?
on the boat engine I think he’s talking about the crank shaft oil seal.

It’s a Ferrari...he’s paranoid about every part

 

[MapisM]

It’s the gasket that has failed but you have to remove lots of parts, and replace other gaskets/bolts.

You're now making me curious enough to go down my e/r and have a look, as I just did.
Is the need to remove other parts due to some bits obstructing the access on your boat, possibly?
In mine, reaching those filters supports isn't a piece of cake for sure, because as you know it's very low and somewhat hidden.
But it looks like it wouldn't take a crazy amount of sweat to reach the bolts that connect that part to the crankcase, without dismantling anything else.
I never did that anyhow (and I hope I'll never have to, fingers crossed!), so what do I know...?

 

[Portofino]

Porto will be paranoid about RMS, rear main seal, owning a Porsche ?
on the boat engine I think he’s talking about the crank shaft oil seal.

It’s a Ferrari...he’s paranoid about every part

Two Porsches and the flat 6 ones got a M9a1 engine .No RMS issues with that .I did my homework. For Chris no IMS or bore scoring either .
The current Ferrari my third as the previous two were, is utterly reliable and bomb proof .Certainly no paranoia .

Back to inherently vibration from the V motors .
I don’t believe in bad luck or co incidences ….there’s gotta be reason for this leak recurring on the older none electrotwackery V configuration MANs .Reading other forums it occurs on older V 12 as well as V8 s .If it’s linked to vibrations MapishM point earlier.
The most layman link I can find is this .It’s a good read for engine nuts

Engine configuration: straight, V-shaped, flat

Note what it says about straight 6 s . Also Porsche flat 6 s gets a mention too as the smoothest now it’s been brought in .

See this sentence in the V8 para “It is possible to ensure a uniform alternation of flashes in such a motor, which also works for smooth running “

Now revisit what I said about an injector not behaving , not giving the bang or “ flash “ it should .
So 4 cylinders on one side versus 3 .75 in the other .Or a supposedly balanced pair opposed with one with a value of 1 and its partner moving on the other side with a “ flash “ value of 0.75 .See the imbalance and slight vibration.
Happens in V Configurations.

The bill .Garabino normally sends an itemised quote .It’s as chris said loads of gaskets , bolts , seals mostly of stuff to get to the offending part .The Labour is or was with me the lower bit of the quote .Even the sea trail will be in there , then the 20 % tax .
Sea trail s worth it to access the motors you get a full engineers report and health check , if there are other underlying issues he will pick them up .

@MapisM he’s the guy who said leave the injectors at 950 hr .While he was replacing one for me with a faulty sensor I asked him about pulling them all and sending for testing …..internet chat about 1000 hr service etc .Seemed a reasonable ask ?
So he had a lap top plugged in to confirm the new injector was working with its sensors as it should .The umbilical plugs into the black box full of mother boards part of the Boning control thing .

We saw together or he demonstrated on the lap top 6 bar charts for each cylinder , bit like piano keys bouncing up and time every time it ‘ flashes “ .All sorts , time opening , fuel vol , it’s time in the timing etc etc .Over laid on the real data you could put the factory optimal setting and see how close or indeed far away yours is compared to the factory settings .
They were all bang on .So he said waste of time pulling them .
What now I asked ? He said 2000 hrs basically to make sure they don’t end up ceased in .

I asked him ( MAN master technician) about the dreaded rpm s to run the boat and he nodded at run them hard , the whole EGT thingy ( sorry Ellasar I’ve mentioned them again ) You know low rpms sooting you the tips and he also the said soot if it doesn’t knacker a tip actually adds abrasive particles to the oil that otherwise would have not happened if the engine was running at the correct cylinder temps + pressure .At low rpms the rings don’t seal, it’s not hot enough and crap from poor combustion gets into the oil .

Tin hat time for me as someone will no doubt shoot the messenger.

 

[Chris H]

There is an oil cooler in the housing behind the oil filters, all this has to be removed ………and replaced with new gaskets & bolts, to get to the gasket between the engine block and oil cooler, I’ve got a pdf of the parts but can’t load it on here.

 

[Chris H]

Two Porsches and the flat 6 ones got a M9a1 engine .No RMS issues with that .I did my homework. For Chris no IMS or bore scoring either .
The current Ferrari my third as the previous two were, is utterly reliable and bomb proof .Certainly no paranoia .

Back to inherently vibration from the V motors .
I don’t believe in bad luck or co incidences ….there’s gotta be reason for this leak recurring on the older none electrotwackery V configuration MANs .Reading other forums it occurs on older V 12 as well as V8 s .If it’s linked to vibrations MapishM point earlier.
The most layman link I can find is this .It’s a good read for engine nuts

Engine configuration: straight, V-shaped, flat

Note what it says about straight 6 s . Also Porsche flat 6 s gets a mention too as the smoothest now it’s been brought in .

See this sentence in the V8 para “It is possible to ensure a uniform alternation of flashes in such a motor, which also works for smooth running “

Now revisit what I said about an injector not behaving , not giving the bang or “ flash “ it should .
So 4 cylinders on one side versus 3 .75 in the other .Or a supposedly balanced pair opposed with one with a value of 1 and its partner moving on the other side with a “ flash “ value of 0.75 .See the imbalance and slight vibration.
Happens in V Configurations.

The bill .Garabino normally sends an itemised quote .It’s as chris said loads of gaskets , bolts , seals mostly of stuff to get to the offending part .The Labour is or was with me the lower bit of the quote .Even the sea trail will be in there , then the 20 % tax .
Sea trail s worth it to access the motors you get a full engineers report and health check , if there are other underlying issues he will pick them up .

@MapisM he’s the guy who said leave the injectors at 950 hr .While he was replacing one for me with a faulty sensor I asked him about pulling them all and sending for testing …..internet chat about 1000 hr service etc .Seemed a reasonable ask ?
So he had a lap top plugged in to confirm the new injector was working with its sensors as it should .The umbilical plugs into the black box full of mother boards part of the Boning control thing .

We saw together or he demonstrated on the lap top 6 bar charts for each cylinder , bit like piano keys bouncing up and time every time it ‘ flashes “ .All sorts , time opening , fuel vol , it’s time in the timing etc etc .Over laid on the real data you could put the factory optimal setting and see how close or indeed far away yours is compared to the factory settings .
They were all bang on .So he said waste of time pulling them .
What now I asked ? He said 2000 hrs basically to make sure they don’t end up ceased in .

I asked him ( MAN master technician) about the dreaded rpm s to run the boat and he nodded at run them hard , the whole EGT thingy ( sorry Ellasar I’ve mentioned them again ) You know low rpms sooting you the tips and he also the said soot if it doesn’t knacker a tip actually adds abrasive particles to the oil that otherwise would have not happened if the engine was running at the correct cylinder temps + pressure .At low rpms the rings don’t seal, it’s not hot enough and crap from poor combustion gets into the oil .

Tin hat time for me as someone will no doubt shoot the messenger.

I think your barking up the wrong tree with the vibration thing, it’s a weak gasket that has gone, Paolo showed me quite a few pictures on his phone of the same gasket, and some bodged fixes, on other boats.

I will guarantee your Ferrari will need a water pump every few years and manifolds don’t last long, I’ve had a Gt4, GTB and Mondial, all of them needed water pumps .

 

[Hurricane]

Not the same point but....
Ferrari are really good at strategy - well certainly after today anyway