McMurdo PLB battery replacement....

[fireball]

So until you happened to end up with a liferaft and EPIRB, you were happy with the possibility that you and your crew may have had to step off the boat into the cold water, 35 miles offshore with no help on the way because at that distance you may well have been out of fixed, and most certainly were out of handheld, VHF range?

What would you have done next?

Possibility ... ok - so what would make me have to step off the boat ...

1) collision with another vessel significant enough to cause sinking - not an impossibility ... chances are slight, especially getting away from the crowded inner coastal waters - might get hit by a commercial - but unlikely as I'll do as much as possible to ensure we don't get that close and quite likely that they'll know - as I said I don't go out in adverse conditions .. so getting hit in horrible weather in the dark is so unlikely that it isn't a consideration.

2) fire ... this is the greater possibility - electrical failure or gas leak. ...
Let's start with Gas leak ... the gas bottle is in the stern by the helm ... easy enough to isolate, fire extinguishers are aplenty ... as is a fire blanket - but I generally try NOT to go down below too often in open water as I get seasick - so the gas isn't on ... hot drinks are done via pre-prepared flasks ...
Electrical failure - a higher possibility - generally sparks from high draw cables and dodgy connections - it's a risk, but very small ...

Now on to the comms ...
My sailing area is the central south ... trips across the channel see the greatest isolation from land ... but at no point is it out of the range of the emergency services. If I did loose the mast then I have a pushpit antenna to attach, if we lost the boat then a HH will be heard on the bridge of a passing ship - but I would hope to have pushed the DSC alert on the main VHF before the boat went ...
Within the central south area we're never far from another vessel - easily within HH VHF and even mobile phone range - if not a bucket of flares is at hand ...

It's all down to perception of risk - do you (or anyone else for that matter) carry a fire extinguisher or fire blanket in your car? Do you even carry a first aid kit ... ?
Shouldn't you carry a knife just in case the seatbelt buckle won't release?
You might need all 3 in the case of an RTA with person(s) trapped - but I'd hazard a guess that not many do ... because where the majority of us drive the emergency services are plentiful and easy to summon.... start going away from those areas and the level of self reliance has to build ...

So - back to the question of LR and EPIRB - are they worth the expense? Statistically not .. so it comes down to your perception of the risk.

 

[fireball]

Of your list, only the liferings and danbuoy are no good to a singlehander. The liferaft, EPIRB, lifejackets, flares, handheld VHF, grab bag, fire extinguishers, fire blanket and gas alarm could all be life savers. Why would you choose not to have them?

Can I ask a couple of simple questions ...

At what point do you put your lifejacket on?
and
Where is your HH VHF ?

 

[Sailfree]

Can I ask a couple of simple questions ...

At what point do you put your lifejacket on?
and
Where is your HH VHF ?

and is the HH VHF waterproof - I bought a second HH VHF but a waterproof one after the Ouzo incident.

I likewise get P1s*ed off with people in the lounge catigating others for speeding and quoting increased stopping distances yet they can't be bothered to halve their own stopping distance from legal speeds during the cold weather by buying winter tyres.

Recent article suggest that with the average temps in UK and the disadvantages of Summer tyres in winter v winter tyres in summer you can lower your risk factor considerably by using winter tyres all year round if you can only afford one set of tyres.

 

[prv]

[...]could all be life savers. Why would you choose not to have them?

Do you ever walk along the pavement beside a road?

If so, you must agree that there's a risk of tripping off the pavement in front of a car, or of a rogue (drunk, drugged, heart-attack, etc) driver sending their vehicle up the kerb and hitting you.

In such an event, a modern motorbike jacket with its built-in armour plates might well help to reduce your injuries. Why would you choose not to wear one whenever you walk along the road?

I'd suggest it's some combination of your perception that the risk of being run over is acceptably low, that you don't want to spend a couple of hundred quid on a motorbike jacket, and that you would consider it inconvenient to have to put on a special garment (even though some modern bike jackets look perfectly reasonable and needn't be a shiny leather romper suit).

I'd suggest that much the same reasons pertain to sailors choosing not to carry every possible safety item for coastal sailing.

Pete

 

[Simondjuk]

I'd say your guess on probability on the phone scenario is way out. She got very lucky. The phone stayed dry and she was within reception range of the shore. Neither are by any means a given.

Sure, statistically the risks of needing to use such a piece of equipment are small, just like they are of having a car accident. Given how easy it is to prevent it though, why run gauntlet of possibly spreading the contents of your head all over the inside of the windscreen when the simple action of using a basic bit of kit would prevent it?

As for expenditure versus safety, when I think of the three chaps who ended up in the water on the night of 20/21 august 2006, £185 seems a very small price to pay for a good chance that someone would be looking for me should I end up in a similar predicament. It's whole lot less than many people pay for one golf club.

 

[Finbar]

This thread seems to have wandered off on its own anchor like direction. I am interested in the original question. Anyone know if the battery can be replaced DIY? If so where is the best source of a battery?

 

[Talulah]

I'd say your guess on probability on the phone scenario is way out. She got very lucky. The phone stayed dry and she was within reception range of the shore. Neither are by any means a given.

Sure, statistically the risks of needing to use such a piece of equipment are small, just like they are of having a car accident. Given how easy it is to prevent it though, why run gauntlet of possibly spreading the contents of your head all over the inside of the windscreen when the simple action of using a basic bit of kit would prevent it?

As for expenditure versus safety, when I think of the three chaps who ended up in the water on the night of 20/21 august 2006, £185 seems a very small price to pay for a good chance that someone would be looking for me should I end up in a similar predicament. It's whole lot less than many people pay for one golf club.

Do you only cross the road at junctions and zebra/pelican crossings?
Whilst the example I gave about the mobile phone was very opportunist making use of recent news I still suspect the mobile phone is the most successful of all the safety equipment. Just for obvious reasons you don't hear about it.
You have jumped on the seatbelt scenario implying I wouldn't wear a seat belt when doing 30mph. I didn't say that. What I said is wearing of a seat belt would be dependant upon the risks.

Apologies to the OP for the thread drift.

 

[Simondjuk]

Fireball,

There happen to be both a first aid kit and a fire extinguisher in my car. Neither came with the car, I put them both there, although admittedly the fire extinguisher is out of date (hence why it came off the boat it was on). I also always have a knife in my pocket, as any sailor should.

I put my lifejacket on before I slip the lines 99% of the time, but then I sail single or shorthanded most of the time so being picked up by the boat I've fallen off either isn't going to happen at all or may take some time at best. I'm also aware that cold shock can ruin your day even before a boat full of on the ball pros could pluck you out. The rare times when I don't wear it is when sailing in warm waters (bearing in mind that <15 degrees is considered cold in survival terms), with a full and experienced crew, in daylight, fair weather and flat seas. In short, at times when I'd happily jump into the water just for the fun of it.

The handheld VHF, one of them at least, is always in the cockpit. Either hooked onto something or other or clipped to me.

Why do you ask?


Talulah,

The RNLI specifically warn against relying on mobile phones for distress purposes.

I'm not sure how the risks which could alter the need to wear a seatbelt in a vehicle could vary much, once one has left the driveway at least.


My apologies to the OP for the drift also. I just take exception when posts crop up making vague assertions that EPIRBs and PLBs are essentially superfluous if you only sail in the UK or northern Europe.

 

[fireball]

Why do you ask?

Why do I ask - because the answers give me an insight into your perception of risk. It would seem you are rather risk adverse - this isn't a bad thing - so long as you know what you're protecting yourself against.

I hear/see so many "in full getup" under motor in flat calm conditions that I wonder why they're there ...

For me the pleasure of sailing is to get away from everything - I'm not testing myself against the elements - if I want to do that I've got a racing dinghy (and appropriate kit) - so as I've said, chances of needing any safety kit is extremely low and although I have a lot of kit now I still consider "what if" before I set out.

I'll give you one example ...
Normally I would advocate wearing lifejackets on a x channel trip - this september we had zero wind ... the jackets had been prepped and were down below but we didn't bother with putting them on ... why? Because it was flat calm, daylight crossing, visibility was good and I was "sailing" (well, motoring) with someone I trust with my life, we can both swim well and whilst a LJ would've helped had we fallen over it wouldn't take long to turn the boat around and pickup a MOB. With the chance of going overboard so slight in the first place we didn't worry ...
I'm not sure I would've worried about a LR for that trip either - but as there is one aboard I didn't have to consider it.
The same trip in a breeze - I'd probably get the LJ on, because the chances of MOB are increased as is the difficulty level for the person left aboard to control the sails, engine and keep an eye on where the MOB is in the sea state ... I'd be more inclined to have a LR onboard too as that can be used in MOB recovery.
Normal sailing around the coast I don't worry about a LJ - but then I'm the only one to go forward and I make sure I hold on at all times. I've never stopped anyone from wearing a LJ - any crew is welcome to do so - they can even clip on when they feel like they need to, but if it's getting that rough I'd be asking myself what we're doing out there!

 

[Simondjuk]

Your insight is incorrect in this instance I'm afraid.

As well as sailing offshore in all seasons, I've also raced karts, cars and motorcycles, flown light aircraft and worked in several hazardous industries amongst other things.

I'm risk aware rather than risk averse, rather like Jackie Stewart I suppose, and do what I can to ensure that, should the worst happen, I might stay alive and unmaimed in order to enjoy the adventure of life another day.

 

[fireball]

Your insight is incorrect in this instance I'm afraid.

As well as sailing offshore in all seasons, I've also raced karts, cars and motorcycles, flown light aircraft and worked in several hazardous industries amongst other things.

I'm risk aware rather than risk averse, rather like Jackie Stewart I suppose, and do what I can to ensure that, should the worst happen, I might stay alive and unmaimed in order to enjoy the adventure of life another day.

that's fine ... I'm glad that you've considered the risks and have prepared yourself accordingly - no problem with that at all ...

The issue I, and many others have is that there are some people who buy safety kit because it makes the activity "safer" ... and therefore an EPIRB is on the must have list - but they have no idea why ... they have not considered that the chances of needing it are infinitesimally small ... generalising somewhat - these ppl are often the ones in need of the kit as they have a boat with all the safety kit so it must be safe - doesn't matter what the weather is like, or the crew's ability to cope with the conditions ... and they are the sort of people that should stop and consider what an EPIRB is for, and why they might need it - then they can consider what sort to get - one for the boat, or personal one, or both ... perhaps the crews should have (like Sailfree has) personal flares - much easier to locate MOBs if they can light up the area ... but absolutely no use whatsoever if you don't sail in conditions that merit use of that kit.

Incidentally, I've never x channelled on my own vessel without a liferaft .. it's just turned out that way ... but if we didn't have one then I would either hire/borrow one or be a little more choosy about the conditions/crew for the trip.

 

[Tranona]

After a fruitful day spent hacking the leaky front water tank out of my boat - nice to come back to this and find I am not alone.

The questioning of the value of EPIRBs in our waters is not based on any "vague assertions" but on FACTS. There is no doubt that the devices work technically - but the question is whether there is a need for a location device and whether this is the most appropriate one.

There is a need - you only have to look at the RNLI statistics to see that, although for cruising yachtsmen the need is very rare.

Is an EPIRB a good way of attracting the attention of the rescue services? On the evidence, NO as activation is almost non existent, which could be for two reasons. Firstly it could be that there are so few in use or secondly that alternate methods are easily available. The latter would seem to be the case as the combination of VHF, flares, mobile phones and third party observation seem to be pretty effective.

There may of course be cases when these alternatives have failed or an EPIRB might have shortened the time it took the rescue services to reach the casualty. However, if you read the various reports on incidents involving yachts that might have, or did lead to loss of life, you find little evidence that not knowing where the casualty is or delay in reaching the casualty are significant factors in the outcomes.

There is no evidence that the number of life threatening incidents involving leisure boating is increasing - rather the opposite, primarily because of better awareness and particularly better preventative equipment and techniques. So there is no reason to think that the need for alternate methods is likely to grow in the future.

One of the problems with "safety" equipment is that you can always make a case if you use your imagination. You can see it in some of the posts here - what would you do if...? However most of those "ifs" are virtually unknown in the real rather than the imagination! There are still plenty of "real" dangers to worry about which is why most people put effort into planning, having a sound boat, avoiding big ships, using harnesses, wearing lifejackets (particularly in dinghies) etc, because they pay off.

The comparisons with road safety measures is spurious. Seat belts are nothing like EPIRBs They are devices to minimise the impact of specific events. Not only are these events common - both in absolute numbers and comparatively, but there is a huge amount of evidence that they are effective. The only thing in the maritime context that gets anywhere near a seat belt is a lifejacket. Even then the latest research from the RNLI shows that these are only used in a very few cases, but there is also clear evidence that some deaths could have been avoided if a LJ had been used.

So, if you are sailing in areas where the risk of getting into a life threatening situation is high and the means of communication with outsiders is low, then an EPIRB (or PLB) have some value (in addition to having a means of staying alive until help reaches you). if you don't plan to do that sort of thing, then look at the evidence and make your own mind up whether it is worth having one. Of course, cost, which was the question in this thread is important and you may decide to spend your money on improving your chances in dealing with the things that are more threatening to your well being.

 

[Simondjuk]

Tranona,

Facts and statistics are rather different animals, and statistics are what you are basing your opinion on.

By all accounts, Ouzo was a well found boat with an experienced crew, sailing in benign conditions and certainly not " in areas where the risk of getting into a life threatening situation is high and the means of communication with outsiders is low". Yet the three crew members died. They died because, statistics be damned, they did find themselves in the water and they couldn't summon help. At the time PLBs were rather more expensive than they are now, but had each, or perhaps even just one of them, been carrying one, it's more than likely that they'd be alive today. As it was, as soon as they were in the water, just five miles from shore, their fate was all but sealed.


Comments which may steer people away from considering a safety device, any safety device, on its own merits being randomly thrown into threads simply because the author holds a certain opinion based on nothing more than loose interpretation of a few statistics sit badly with me. What would have been more likely to save the lives of the Ouzo's crew than a PLB do you suppose? Perhaps they even considered one at sometime but decided against it due to reading comments suggesting they were superfluous, statistically irrelevant even, to those cruising the UK's coastal waters.

 

[Talulah]

What would have been more likely to save the lives of the Ouzo's crew than a PLB do you suppose? Perhaps they even considered one at sometime but decided against it due to reading comments suggesting they were superfluous, statistically irrelevant even, to those cruising the UK's coastal waters.

Well perhaps a mobile phone in a waterproof case would have been an alternative?
You seem to be picking one case to prove value of PLB but discounting another case that shows value of mobile. (Accepting your previous comment about not relying on them.)
I suspect and this is purely my own opinion that around the coast you could save more lives by promoting water proof cases than by promoting PLB's. This is because if you promoted cases the take up would be much higher due to the relatively low cost.

 

[V1701]

This thread seems to have wandered off on its own anchor like direction. I am interested in the original question. Anyone know if the battery can be replaced DIY? If so where is the best source of a battery?

I have the 210, it will be very easy to change the battery but you have to remove the flap at the top (which is the first stage of the activation process) and in doing that not sure if it's possible to get the used one back on. Then it looks like some screws and there'll be a gasket as well. I also don't know if the battery is the same one as in the newer units which are user replaceable battery (assuming not as the newer units have min 48hr transmit, mine has 24hrs). If it's not the same battery you might well find that they won't sell you one, like me with the gasket for my dive computer. If you don't have a PLB already and want one get the newer one with user replaceable battery (£65) as you can both change the battery yourself and get 48 not 24hr transmit...

 

[prv]

I suspect and this is purely my own opinion that around the coast you could save more lives by promoting water proof [mobile phone] cases

Wouldn't make any difference to me, as I always put my phone (and keys and wallet) in the locker above the chart table as soon as I get on board. Don't like having bulky things in my pockets while sailing.

That's also in large part why I don't have a PLB, because I know in all honesty I wouldn't carry it.

Pete

 

[Sailfree]

This thread seems to have wandered off on its own anchor like direction. I am interested in the original question. Anyone know if the battery can be replaced DIY? If so where is the best source of a battery?

My EPIRB went out of date about 2 yrs ago. I found the official battery replacement cost to be almost the price of a personal EPIRB with GPS.

Out of interest I searched the threads and stripped down my EPIRB. Sourced new batteries (4 IIRC) from the internet (easy - IIRC about £20) but found that the old batteries were connected by wires soldered to each end.

Discovered heat & batteries is a problem and followed thread and bought special solder (can get it from RS components) that was recommended in the thread. [Search threads for EPIRB battery replacements circa 2 years ago on PBO website.] Wife decided to tidy up my garage and shoved lots of things in various boxes - have not managed to re-unite all the EPIRB bits yet and that was 2 yrs ago!!.

So never completed job and someday I will sort out the boxes to discover all the special fittings to my Fireblade so that I can rebuild that as well as the EPIRB.

Please advise how I can ban wife from garage??

Hope this helps but main advice is keep wife away!!

As I had found the official battery replacement cost to be almost the price of a personal EPIRB with GPS after about 2yrs I bought a personal EPIRB with GPS which is permently attached to my LJ. It means that I am OK if I go overboard and in crew safety briefing I suggest that if boat sinks make sure you save me and stay with me as I have the EPIRB. See I think about things and minimise the risk - to me!!

 

[Talulah]

Wouldn't make any difference to me, as I always put my phone (and keys and wallet) in the locker above the chart table as soon as I get on board. Don't like having bulky things in my pockets while sailing.

That's also in large part why I don't have a PLB, because I know in all honesty I wouldn't carry it.

Pete

You're right of course. The mobile stays in the chart table but I suspose you might consider grabbing PLB or phone immediately before incident should you get the chance.
I've just had the first email flyer for the london boat show. I bet the waterproof case stand does much better this year especially if they have a big poster up about the woman saved.

 

[prv]

Please advise how I can ban wife from garage??

I have neither, but from observing those who are equipped with both wives and garages, the answer appears to be to give her a sewing room.

Pete

 

[rotrax]

and is the HH VHF waterproof - I bought a second HH VHF but a waterproof one after the Ouzo incident.

I likewise get P1s*ed off with people in the lounge catigating others for speeding and quoting increased stopping distances yet they can't be bothered to halve their own stopping distance from legal speeds during the cold weather by buying winter tyres.

Recent article suggest that with the average temps in UK and the disadvantages of Summer tyres in winter v winter tyres in summer you can lower your risk factor considerably by using winter tyres all year round if you can only afford one set of tyres.

If by winter tyres you mean tyres that give better performance in snow,you are very much mistaken about their summer performance. They will offer less grip and be very noisy. Unlike my freinds in the Czech Republic who are obliged to install winter tyres in November by law it is not a requirement,or indeed a neccessary thing to do IMHO. Statisticaly our winters are less severe and we have less snow than many other North European countries. We do, of course get severe weather from time to time and it causes problems. The cost of winter tyres for the small amount of time they would be of benifit in the UK would be a burden for many. Some countries insist on tyres fitted with metal studs for snow-these would be a disaster on dry roads. If, however you are talking about some magic tyres that I have yet to hear about, please enlighten me to the make and tread pattern. I would be very interested indeed to find a tyre which appears to be the universal panacea of the tyre world........