MCA targets uncoded race yachts

[dom]

The stumbling block is stability. See here:

https://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/technical/Web Documents/MCA Documents/SS1 - (Sailing Vessel) 2019.pdf

I guess it can be a pain although there are a number of options for stability,

But more importantly, is this not something well worth working out ahead of the wild blue yonder?

 

[TernVI]

Last time I looked at the cost of getting a yacht coded, it was a lot of money.
What does it cost these days?

Also is it the case that an 8 berth yacht can only be coded for 8 people, but you might race inshore with 10 or 11?

 

[capnsensible]

I guess it can be a pain although there are a number of options for stability,

But more importantly, is this not something well worth working out ahead of the wild blue yonder?


View attachment 108400

The problems I've seen are from people buying boats and then trying to code them in a hurry for commercial reasons. It's very difficult with a surveyor to conduct a stability check. Have been involved in a couple. Didn't work.

One yacht I saw going through the process, for example, were told to mount two life rafts on deck. It then failed a stability check.....

It's not insurmountable, but it's very easy to get knocked back. I had that once by simple addition of a radar to a school yacht, 36 feet iirc being moved from cat 2 to cat 4. Means a hit to your operations by fitting......safety equipment!

Of course you can reflag to say Greece. ?

 

[dom]

The problems I've seen are from people buying boats and then trying to code them in a hurry for commercial reasons. It's very difficult with a surveyor to conduct a stability check. Have been involved in a couple. Didn't work.

One yacht I saw going through the process, for example, were told to mount two life rafts on deck. It then failed a stability check.....

It's not insurmountable, but it's very easy to get knocked back. I had that once by simple addition of a radar to a school yacht, 36 feet iirc being moved from cat 2 to cat 4. Means a hit to your operations by fitting......safety equipment!

Of course you can reflag to say Greece. ?

Wow Cat 2 to 4 for a radar is nuts by any calcs i can think of!!

Although I do sometimes wonder if people know how much furlers, radars, biminis, extra diesel, dinghies, liferafts, sprayhoods, etc. collectively degrade stability.

I suppose if people didn't push it the MCA would never have done this but then again Rule Pushers come part and parcel with racing!

And now everybody has to pay

 

[capnsensible]

Wow Cat 2 to 4 for a radar is nuts by any calcs i can think of!!

Although I do sometimes wonder if people know how much furlers, radars, biminis, extra diesel, dinghies, liferafts, sprayhoods, etc. collectively degrade stability.

I suppose if people didn't push it the MCA would never have done this but then again Rule Pushers come part and parcel with racing!

And now everybody has to pay

You got it. Everything goes on the application form. Once it's been processed and you get your category, appealing it is flippin hard work.

Having seen what happens it always interests me when people adapt their cruising yachts with frames, Davits, ribs, solar panels, yadda yadda with no thought whatsoever about the way it affects their stability.

 

[Pete7]

And now everybody has to pay

If they are operating commercially. Sunday morning round the Solent cans perhaps not if you are not paying for the place on the yacht.

 

[dom]

If they are operating commercially. Sunday morning round the Solent cans perhaps not if you are not paying for the place on the yacht.

For owner friends/teammates bashing the cans, sure.

But it subtly changes the game; for example, I've previously lent boats to friends for Cowes Wk, Little Britain, etc., on an insurance + wear and tear basis. That's now out of the question for a non-currently-coded boat, not a show stopper, but the MCA has clarified what was certainly a grey area.

 

[flaming]

Flaming, don’t think anything’s changed,

Ok, I now have a definitive answer.

In the latest code, what was 28.2 in the code valid at the time of CR has been deleted entirely.

https://assets.publishing.service.g.../uploads/attachment_data/file/835951/blue.pdf

So yes, there has been a change, where you did not previously have to be a coded vessel to take paying passengers on a race, now you do.

 

[RJJ]

Ok, I now have a definitive answer.

In the latest code, what was 28.2 in the code valid at the time of CR has been deleted entirely.

https://assets.publishing.service.g.../uploads/attachment_data/file/835951/blue.pdf

So yes, there has been a change, where you did not previously have to be a coded vessel to take paying passengers on a race, now you do.

Definition of paying passengers remains interesting, right?

What's a fair contribution and you still count as a private, non-commercial operation?

My view's always been (1) food, entry fees, diesel and moorings are fair game, since those are strictly variable costs associated with the trip or event rather than the yacht (2) the owner should also contribute per capita to those costs, for the avoidance of doubt; if the crew want to "treat" the owner they can find another way to do it.

Beyond that, I'm aware of lots of amateur racing crews where they want to do well, and chip in to the cost of the odd new sail. To me, that makes sense...but it makes for awkward discussions for the owner if there's an accident and they aren't coded.

 

[dom]

Definition of paying passengers remains interesting, right?

What's a fair contribution and you still count as a private, non-commercial operation?

My view's always been (1) food, entry fees, diesel and moorings are fair game, since those are strictly variable costs associated with the trip or event rather than the yacht (2) the owner should also contribute per capita to those costs, for the avoidance of doubt; if the crew want to "treat" the owner they can find another way to do it.

Beyond that, I'm aware of lots of amateur racing crews where they want to do well, and chip in to the cost of the odd new sail. To me, that makes sense...but it makes for awkward discussions for the owner if there's an accident and they aren't coded.

This is the crux of the matter and it's a grey area. I'd have hitherto agreed with you up to but not including the odd new sail. Opinions differed.

The substantive point here is that the MCA has subtly changed the rules to de facto take control of this grey area. Yacht owners are now on notice that, if challenged, their best outcome is to worm themselves out of the new de facto/de jure interface. The worst outcome is a criminal sanction and massive expenditure.

There's been a lot of discussion on this topic over the years, the MCA wasn't happy with CR and other episodes, and it has remedied the relevant rules. The key takeout is:

If In Doubt - Code That Boat!

 

[flaming]

This is the crux of the matter and it's a grey area. I'd have hitherto agreed with you up to but not including the odd new sail. Opinions differed.

The substantive point here is that the MCA has subtly changed the rules to de facto take control of this grey area. Yacht owners are now on notice that, if challenged, their best outcome is to worm themselves out of the new de facto/de jure interface. The worst outcome is a criminal sanction and massive expenditure.

There's been a lot of discussion on this topic over the years, the MCA wasn't happy with CR and other episodes, and it has remedied the relevant rules. The key takeout is:

If In Doubt - Code That Boat!

I've always felt that as long as you can justify it as cost sharing it was fair game.

Otherwise, if I, as a crew member decided to buy a sail I can always say that this is my sail, not the boat's surely...?

I can absolutely understand why the MCA are focussing on the Atlantic game, but I do fear that they are changing the economics for regular race boat owners by making it that much harder for owners to offset their costs with the occasional race charter for RTI etc.
And then you have to ask, what is it in the coding regs that is not in the ISAF regs that boats have to comply with to enter races that makes a realistic difference to the safety? What is the safety gap that they are trying to close?

 

[TernVI]

Definition of paying passengers remains interesting, right?

What's a fair contribution and you still count as a private, non-commercial operation?

My view's always been (1) food, entry fees, diesel and moorings are fair game, since those are strictly variable costs associated with the trip or event rather than the yacht (2) the owner should also contribute per capita to those costs, for the avoidance of doubt; if the crew want to "treat" the owner they can find another way to do it.

Beyond that, I'm aware of lots of amateur racing crews where they want to do well, and chip in to the cost of the odd new sail. To me, that makes sense...but it makes for awkward discussions for the owner if there's an accident and they aren't coded.

No, I don't think this is the key point at all, or at least not the only one.

The key point is are the 'contributing guests' your family or friends?
If you go out making trips available to the 'orrible public, it's commercial end of.

 

[TernVI]

I've always felt that as long as you can justify it as cost sharing it was fair game.

Otherwise, if I, as a crew member decided to buy a sail I can always say that this is my sail, not the boat's surely...?

I can absolutely understand why the MCA are focussing on the Atlantic game, but I do fear that they are changing the economics for regular race boat owners by making it that much harder for owners to offset their costs with the occasional race charter for RTI etc.
And then you have to ask, what is it in the coding regs that is not in the ISAF regs that boats have to comply with to enter races that makes a realistic difference to the safety? What is the safety gap that they are trying to close?

1) You mention the RTI, which has not been free of high profile incidents.
2) the big difference between proper racing and charter boat racing is that people get on a charter boat chosen for their ability to wave a credit card rather than competence at crewing. They are also likely strangers so the skipper and other crew members don't have the advantage of knowing what they are any good at.
I may sail with some people who lack talent, but they are my talentless mates and I know where I stand.

 

[flaming]

1) You mention the RTI, which has not been free of high profile incidents.
2) the big difference between proper racing and charter boat racing is that people get on a charter boat chosen for their ability to wave a credit card rather than competence at crewing. They are also likely strangers so the skipper and other crew members don't have the advantage of knowing what they are any good at.
I may sail with some people who lack talent, but they are my talentless mates and I know where I stand.

I'm talking less about people joining a crew as newbies, and an owner chartering the whole boat to, for example, a group of dinghy sailing mates who fancy a go on a big boat. Bareboat chartering.

What is the gap between the safety regs of the ISAF rules that the boat must comply to in order to enter the race, and the coding rules that the MCA think they are closing?

 

[duncan99210]

What is the gap between the safety regs of the ISAF rules that the boat must comply to in order to enter the race, and the coding rules that the MCA think they are closing?

Flaming, I think the point is where the responsibility lies and who is doing the checking. The differences between the ISAF and MCA requirements may be small to none existent but being MCA coded requires you to comply with the coding requirements all the time the boat is in use whereas you only need to comply with the ISAF rules when racing. It also gives the MCA the powers to conduct checks on boats when they consider it necessary, something that is less easy to do when they are not coded.

 

[TernVI]

...

What is the gap between the safety regs of the ISAF rules that the boat must comply to in order to enter the race, and the coding rules that the MCA think they are closing?

Qualified crew members? Like a paid skipper (YM) and watch leader?
Safe working practices maybe? It brings the whole activity into 'elf and safety?
Higher levels of insurance?
Turning any leisure activity into business is a world of risk assessments, paper trails etc.
When you offer an activity to the public, you take on a lot of responsibility.
It's not just ticking the boxes to make sure the boat is ORC compliant or whatever, it would get into taking care of your punters.

 

[flaming]

Qualified crew members? Like a paid skipper (YM) and watch leader?

How does that fit with bareboat charter? Specifically bareboat race charter.

 

[flaming]

Flaming, I think the point is where the responsibility lies and who is doing the checking. The differences between the ISAF and MCA requirements may be small to none existent but being MCA coded requires you to comply with the coding requirements all the time the boat is in use whereas you only need to comply with the ISAF rules when racing. It also gives the MCA the powers to conduct checks on boats when they consider it necessary, something that is less easy to do when they are not coded.

Well, other than they still allow coded boats to not comply with the code when racing, providing that they comply with the ISAF rules...

28.1 A vessel chartered or operated commercially for the purpose of yacht racing need not comply with the provisions of the Code provided that when racing:- .
1 It is racing under the rules of the International Yacht Racing Union; or .
2 If it is racing offshore, it complies with the special regulations of the Offshore Racing Council or the race organising committee; and .
3 If it is a vessel of a national or an international class, it complies with class rules

So, if I read this right, the boat must be coded to be chartered or take paying guests. But need not comply with the code when racing, providing they comply with the ISAF rules.

So to do the ARC or a fastnet as a racing charter, you must code the boat, then ignore all of that and just comply with the ISAF rules for the race.

What am I missing that makes that make sense?

 

[TernVI]

Are bareboat operations what the MCA are targetting here?

If it's on a business footing , would you be allowed to charter a boat to any random bunch of unqualified people?
What do Sunsail do? Why should any other 'business charter' expect to do less?

 

[TernVI]

What are the rules in other EU countries?