MY littlebirchwoo
Well-Known Member
Please excuse the spelling on the previous post - I'm not a retard...just an iPhonaphobe!!!
PilotWolf
Well-Known Member
1. No high and mighty stance - just reporting an alternative view and experience from many days and miles covered, day and night and in various weather and tidal conditions.
2. So another poster who has never caught one? Do you really believe it is just luck?
3. I am not suggesting avoiding these areas just be aware of them and use extra vigilance.
4. Without knowing the propulsion type or what was snagged I can't comment on that particular incident but I would suggest it is uncommon for a vessel that size to be stopped by just a pot line. An ex-skipper managed to wrap some of the vessel's own kit around the prop of our small 'trolling' engine - 180hp - bent 1" stainless tubing and wrapped huge amount of heavy cable and rope around the prop before it stopped it. Fortunately no damage to the boat - other than the cost of being lifted and loss of earnings. (Yes I do have pictures!).
5. Many of these markers have nets between them but its unlikely the nets will be any risk as they're usually on the bottom. The exception being drift netting on the surface which will or should be attended by the boat that set them - firstly to protect them and secondly to track them to avoid loss.
Finally, I am not saying that it is right the way some of the gear is marked - I am simply trying to point out that I'm not convinced that the problem of actual as opposed to potential fouling is as bad as some would like to make out. And yes I am afraid that we ALL have a responsibility to ourselves and our safety as well as to others - whether the fishermen are meeting that is open to question but does that absolve others of reducing the risks where possible...
PW
blueglass
Well-Known Member
You keep doggedly coming back to this point PW - nobody is saying we don't have to keep a look out etc etc and reduce the risks - we all do that anyway. But that doesn't change the basic requirement for potters to reduce the risk AT SOURCE by marking clearly, and THAT is what this thread and campaign is about.
As regards your observations on the low percentage of callouts by RNLI - don't forget that most incidents are sorted out by skippers without pulling in the RNLI at all.
PilotWolf
Well-Known Member
It's called being realistic - no leisure magazine campaign is going to change anything, in the same way as the RYA and the MCA seem to have little or no interest in doing anything. There are already by-laws in place in some areas which are not being enforced by either harbour authorities and/or sea fisheries committees so what makes you think any (unlikely) new law will be enforced any differently?
Does everyone keep a proper good look out? I find that hard to believe in all honesty - take for example single handed crew - never go to the heads or to make tea or to check the plotter?
MBM quoted the RNLI figures I was just putting them into a perspective.
PW.
Csail
N/A
Totally agree, just chop them....bit unfair about the lobster unless you pull it up and eat it.
PilotWolf
Well-Known Member
You may find that they pursue criminal damage charges. Local fishermans' organisations are more powerful than many realise...
Or if it's you that does it they may point Mrs/Ms Csail to your posts in the Lounge!
PW
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blueglass
Well-Known Member
Perhaps a counter claim of criminal damages charges to our fouled up boats would focus their attention. I would have happily paid the guy who fouled me up the value of his pots and line in return for the tow and lift out to get me up and running again!
PilotWolf
Well-Known Member
If you can afford it, unsupported by the financial backing of a 'union' type organisation, maybe give it a go. Trust me I have been on the prosecuting side of things against 'poor' fishermen and it's surprising what expensive lawyers and expert witnesses that turn up in court as part of their defence...
And I would suggest that given the problem of identifying the owner of the gear, as described in the posts above, I think the chances of you succeeding are probably remote. Also I would presume that unless you do it privately I doubt it would even get near court as 'not being in the public interest'.
PW.
blueglass
Well-Known Member
perhaps the difficulty of identifying the boat owner who cuts off the badly marked pots would be equally difficult.
as for the rest of your comments - I had kind of worked that out for myself which is why I just paid up and moved on. Dare I suggest however that this defeatist attitude is what has created the current no win situation. MBM deserve whatever support is available for their campaign.
If pots were marked with the owner's ID as is actually already required (but unenforced) in many places, liabilty claims would be a step nearer feasability
electrosys
Well-Known Member
There's something rather self-defeating about threatening to take legal action in regard of damage caused by poorly marked pots - to my mind such threats would be an encouragement for fishermen to become even more 'anonymous' in their activities.
I would have thought that education is to be much preferred to legislation (sorry about the sound-bite).
MY littlebirchwoo
Well-Known Member
PW - I can see that you are trying to play devils advocate to some degree on this one but, as we all agree, no one is trying to stop the 'potting' just come up with a suitable marking system.
Here are two images, the first taken just outside the River Deben, the second, not far from Southwold both off the Suffolk coast.
In both cases lets play 'Spot the Pot' - Just to give you a clue, there are actually 4 in a line on the second shot!
Here are two images, the first taken just outside the River Deben, the second, not far from Southwold both off the Suffolk coast.
In both cases lets play 'Spot the Pot' - Just to give you a clue, there are actually 4 in a line on the second shot!
MY littlebirchwoo
Well-Known Member
Just to give you another clue, the pot markers on the second shot are empty 'coke' bottles and you will have to look just to the port side of my wash as we carefully manoevered between them
blueglass
Well-Known Member
educate away. You can only educate those who wish to be educated.
PilotWolf
Well-Known Member
I would be surprised if the Coke bottles are full time fishermen.
The gallon cans are used because they're cheap or free compared to the cost of a dahn pole,float and weight or buoy. But they are fairly robust unlike a coke bottle which doesn't even have the handle to tie to.
I have seen coke and milk bottle used with a single baited line from smal open boats - drift fishing basically.
Fisherman are by their nature not keen to accept change. Even education of the safety kind has been very difficult to deliver. I can't see education working...
Not being defeatist - just living in the real world of commercial operations. Hence I look out for 'risk's to me and my vessel and do our best to minimise them because currently that is the only option.
PW
The gallon cans are used because they're cheap or free compared to the cost of a dahn pole,float and weight or buoy. But they are fairly robust unlike a coke bottle which doesn't even have the handle to tie to.
I have seen coke and milk bottle used with a single baited line from smal open boats - drift fishing basically.
Fisherman are by their nature not keen to accept change. Even education of the safety kind has been very difficult to deliver. I can't see education working...
Not being defeatist - just living in the real world of commercial operations. Hence I look out for 'risk's to me and my vessel and do our best to minimise them because currently that is the only option.
PW
electrosys
Well-Known Member
That's not the kind of 'education' I had in mind ....
Take MYlittlebirchwoo's photos - a couple of good examples there illustrating the point to be made. But 'the point to be made' ought not to be one of safety, or expensive damage to boats etc ... those aren't good selling points, and after all, you're in the business of selling an idea here. No - the the point to be made is that "if we can't see your pot markers, then you stand a pretty good chance of losing your pot by it being run over" - and there's an obvious incentive to take heed of what's being suggested, in that pots ain't exactly cheap.
But it's not a lot of good folk beefing on about the issue here - that's preaching to the already converted. The message needs to go out to the various fishing forums on the web, in the hope that the message will eventually filter down to those who don't browse the internet. But not threats, or whinging - that approach will not win anybody over - but by the use of photographic examples of invisible vs. visible pot markers instead, with a suggestion that we help each other for mutual advantage, in a kindof 'win-win' scenario.
PilotWolf
Well-Known Member
Do you really beleive that they don't know that?! I am guessing that the risk against the actual losses is tiny. For example use the figures quoted from the RNLI. In addition if it is a 'professional' fisherman (other than the small boats shooting one pot at a time), there will be another marker on the other end of the string and the chance of losing both is even more remote and if they do it is a fairly simple, if time consuming hassle to drag a grapple to catch the line between the pots.
Good luck with that one! Have a look at a site such as Gaelforce for the price of dahns and large buoys and then at Fishing News for the price that the fishermen get for lobster/crab and you'll see why they won't change. Whilst a good skipper can make money you won't find many rich (ground level) fishermen.
Trust me if you threaten a fisherman you'll either get laughed at in nice areas or a lot worse in nasty areas!
What is the mutual advantage for the fisherman?
In my current position we will often have a fish rep on board to liaise with the local fishermen over their pot/net locations/etc. The client pays for it but takes some pressure off the bridge' team and off the survey team from being accused of towing away gear. I've seen claims for gear damage in areas we weren't working/days we were in port/etc. Trust me - with £100Ks of electronic towed gear behind the vessel the survey guys know if they have snagged something or not. I've seen sonar pictures where the pots show up clearly on the sea bed.
W.
blueglass
Well-Known Member
I totally agree with above - education, liasion, damage claims, forum chat, cutting pots loose etc etc are all doomed to faliure.
The only way things will change is by crystal clear legislation, backed up by the will to enforce it and the resources to carry it out.
The chances of that scenario at present I also agree are about nil, but that is not a reason to throw in the towel and take the meek blind acceptance route as PW seems to favour. Whatever slim chance MBY have in bringing about change - good luck to them
The only way things will change is by crystal clear legislation, backed up by the will to enforce it and the resources to carry it out.
The chances of that scenario at present I also agree are about nil, but that is not a reason to throw in the towel and take the meek blind acceptance route as PW seems to favour. Whatever slim chance MBY have in bringing about change - good luck to them
MY littlebirchwoo
Well-Known Member
PW - You make a valid point about fishermen, especially those that are working as 'one man bands' not so worried about working within quotas, landing fish to be sold in a shack somewhere...oh and, at every opportunity 'trying it on' - The very people that will be stringing nets and using coke bottles as net floats (Which is what the second pic I posted possibly was - or certainly what it looked like to me as also have a pic of the boat that put them there - he wasn't too far away with rods off the back too... ) - These very guys, once they get to grips with a 'survey' vessel in their sector suddenly lose their gear and all very expensive nets and marker bouys too !!!
One thing you will never change is the opportunist, and we are not talking about share fishermen here working a small boat between them, we are mostly talking of individuals, some reputable, some just trying to make a buck or two and some just nicking a few on the side
And that, I fear, is where the problem lays, because those people, often known to the other fishermen as well, don't want their pots and nets spotted for obvious reasons - and as has been mentioned above, any attempt to persuade them otherwise may end up with the person making the suggestion being 're-educated'
One thing you will never change is the opportunist, and we are not talking about share fishermen here working a small boat between them, we are mostly talking of individuals, some reputable, some just trying to make a buck or two and some just nicking a few on the side
And that, I fear, is where the problem lays, because those people, often known to the other fishermen as well, don't want their pots and nets spotted for obvious reasons - and as has been mentioned above, any attempt to persuade them otherwise may end up with the person making the suggestion being 're-educated'
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colingr
Well-Known Member
A quick look past Calshot and off Lee on Solent on Saturday revealed 2 black buoys with trailing blue polyprop line, a number of blue gallon containers with sinking line and a single white small buoy.
Also a couple of old squash bottles (the larger clear type) in the waterski area next to Osbourne bay. Just where the skiers are most likely to run over them.
Clearly marked my ****
Also a couple of old squash bottles (the larger clear type) in the waterski area next to Osbourne bay. Just where the skiers are most likely to run over them.
Clearly marked my ****
masterofnone
Well-Known Member
Poorly marked pot
Sun 24/7 small cuddy towed in from newhaven lhouse after fouling prop on pot, just inside of wall.
Sun 24/7 small cuddy towed in from newhaven lhouse after fouling prop on pot, just inside of wall.