MBM GreenlineHybrid Article

[Chris_d]

I would have thought the Hybrid option is the selling point? Otherwise I think a single cabin 33 footer has a limited resale market. It does seem a remarkably inexpensive boat given the technology in it and I think it will sell but you have to wonder how Greenline can do it for the money when established manufacturers can't offer their non hybrid 33 footers for anywhere the same price

A lot of inland boats of this size only offer one cabin, Linsen 29.9 for example and specced up in a recent MBM test was nearly 200K

I liked the design, the saloon window that folded up ala Azimut to open up the saloon to the cockpit looks great, the fold down transom which looks very usable and saves mooring charges, also walk round sidedecks with the solid rear cockpit cover similar to a trawler.

Well designed boats with easily driven displacement to SD hulls are very rare, yet were very common 50 years ago, now only the Scandinavians seem to make similar boats, but usualy with design quirks not suited to UK tastes.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

A lot of inland boats of this size only offer one cabin, Linsen 29.9 for example and specced up in a recent MBM test was nearly 200K

I liked the design, the saloon window that folded up ala Azimut to open up the saloon to the cockpit looks great, the fold down transom which looks very usable and saves mooring charges, also walk round sidedecks with the solid rear cockpit cover similar to a trawler.

Well designed boats with easily driven displacement to SD hulls are very rare, yet were very common 50 years ago, now only the Scandinavians seem to make similar boats, but usualy with design quirks not suited to UK tastes.

Yup but Linssen offer an aft cabin version of the 29.9 so they cover both bases. I don't know that the hull design of the Greenline can be considered an advantage. It's only SD because it hasn't got enough power to go any faster and it's efficacy as a displacement cruiser is as yet unknown. Does it roll less than an equivalent length planing boat, does it track straighter at d speeds than a typical outdrive hull? I dunno.
Actually thats one question that hasn't been asked. How much more fuel efficient would the Greenline be at SD/planing speeds if it had outdrive rather than shaftdrive power. I may be wrong but with the electric motor/generator coupled between the engine and the prop, I guess shaftdrive was the only option but we know that shaftdrive is much less efficient than outdrive. It seems to me that to incorporate the hybrid components, the designers had to choose the most inefficient drive system which sort of defeats the purpose IMHO

 

[Chris_d]

Yup but Linssen offer an aft cabin version of the 29.9 so they cover both bases. I don't know that the hull design of the Greenline can be considered an advantage. It's only SD because it hasn't got enough power to go any faster and it's efficacy as a displacement cruiser is as yet unknown. Does it roll less than an equivalent length planing boat, does it track straighter at d speeds than a typical outdrive hull? I dunno.
Actually thats one question that hasn't been asked. How much more fuel efficient would the Greenline be at SD/planing speeds if it had outdrive rather than shaftdrive power. I may be wrong but with the electric motor/generator coupled between the engine and the prop, I guess shaftdrive was the only option but we know that shaftdrive is much less efficient than outdrive. It seems to me that to incorporate the hybrid components, the designers had to choose the most inefficient drive system which sort of defeats the purpose IMHO

I think they addressed some of these issues, the hull is based on Yacht design so easily driven at displacement speeds, it has two small keel fins to add stabilty. The shaftdrive is horizontal which takes away one inefficiency with shafts and they have specced a carefully designed 5 blade prop, i'm sure at proper planing speeds an outdrive will still be better but at the speeds the Greenline is designed to run at maybe not.

 

[apollo]

I have to say I really liked the boat and at around the £100K mark seems very reasonable when you consider a Sealine 29 is £150K+

Had a response back from the builders with Air Draft of 255 cm with a folding radar mast (from waterline to the top point of the radar mast) which makes it a contender for the french canals.

I agree with others, worth getting the hybrid while its offered.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I think they addressed some of these issues, the hull is based on Yacht design so easily driven at displacement speeds, it has two small keel fins to add stabilty. The shaftdrive is horizontal which takes away one inefficiency with shafts and they have specced a carefully designed 5 blade prop, i'm sure at proper planing speeds an outdrive will still be better but at the speeds the Greenline is designed to run at maybe not.

The horizontal shaft is more a function of the single engine and a 5 bladed prop is actually less fuel efficient than a 4 or 3 bladed one, however carefully it is designed. Even if the shaftdrive is more efficient at D speeds than an outdrive (which I still doubt), at SD speeds, the outdrive will be much more efficient. Since most 33ft competitors will be outdrive boats, I can't see that the Greenline makes any sense from an environmental or fuel efficiency point of view if you're going to do mostly coastal cruising. As an inland waterways boat with the very occasional coastal trip, it might make an economic case for itself

 

[Chris_d]

The horizontal shaft is more a function of the single engine and a 5 bladed prop is actually less fuel efficient than a 4 or 3 bladed one, however carefully it is designed. Even if the shaftdrive is more efficient at D speeds than an outdrive (which I still doubt), at SD speeds, the outdrive will be much more efficient. Since most 33ft competitors will be outdrive boats, I can't see that the Greenline makes any sense from an environmental or fuel efficiency point of view if you're going to do mostly coastal cruising. As an inland waterways boat with the very occasional coastal trip, it might make an economic case for itself

I think you maybe have a downer on the word "hybrid" and association with the awfull con trick that is the Prius, which doesn't make any sense at all unless tax or congestion charges are a factor, especialy when a diesel Golf is more economical and cheaper.

Hybrid technology has its place though, a Porsche GT3 hybrid nearly won the Nurburgring 24hr race last weekend (I have a small involvement), it stopped with engine failure but was leading by 21mins. The hybrid system gave it superior braking and brake wear, boosted peformance by using power recovered during braking and also improved economy such that it go could one extra lap (old 9.9m circuit) over the opposition between fuel stops. Porsche were highly impressed and pressing on to implement it for performance in road cars, yes I know its also to meet future emmissions etc.. but it works as a performance tool a well.

I seen lots of other applications where energy is wasted and hybrid technology is working, a lift in a mine goes down under gravity and the energy is recovered, it then come back up for free. A Tipper truck drives down into a quarry under braking then comes nearly all the way back up for free, a digger bucket or forklift drops and charges a battery or supercap which helps power it back up, this technology works and is saving energy, it can only get better.

The Greenline (hate the name) has a yacht style hull, these are much more easily driven than any planing boat, a 33ft Yacht at displacement speed nearly always returns high mpg figures, double figures in my experience and always on shafts. The competition for this style of boat though is nearly all shaftdriven stuff not sports crusiers so it is the hull design that marks it out.

And the Hybrid tech can make sense in boat, even well used boats sit idle for days at a time and this gives the solar panels time to recharge the batteries, even in the UK. A 20 mile electric range doesn't sound much but that could be a days cruising inland, get you in and out a large speed restricted harbour for nothing or a slow potter round the bay. They can also power appliances on board directly so no need to fit or run a generator.

I'm not saying the Greenline is the answer to everybodys problems, and saving energy must seem a bit irrelavent to a large mobo owner, but is a significant and well designed boat and makes a lot of sense for the future. Although id probably go for the diesel only version, as thats all I could afford

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I think you maybe have a downer on the word "hybrid" and association with the awfull con trick that is the Prius, which doesn't make any sense at all unless tax or congestion charges are a factor, especialy when a diesel Golf is more economical and cheaper.

Hybrid technology has its place though, a Porsche GT3 hybrid nearly won the Nurburgring 24hr race last weekend (I have a small involvement), it stopped with engine failure but was leading by 21mins. The hybrid system gave it superior braking and brake wear, boosted peformance by using power recovered during braking and also improved economy such that it go could one extra lap (old 9.9m circuit) over the opposition between fuel stops. Porsche were highly impressed and pressing on to implement it for performance in road cars, yes I know its also to meet future emmissions etc.. but it works as a performance tool a well.

I seen lots of other applications where energy is wasted and hybrid technology is working, a lift in a mine goes down under gravity and the energy is recovered, it then come back up for free. A Tipper truck drives down into a quarry under braking then comes nearly all the way back up for free, a digger bucket or forklift drops and charges a battery or supercap which helps power it back up, this technology works and is saving energy, it can only get better.

The Greenline (hate the name) has a yacht style hull, these are much more easily driven than any planing boat, a 33ft Yacht at displacement speed nearly always returns high mpg figures, double figures in my experience and always on shafts. The competition for this style of boat though is nearly all shaftdriven stuff not sports crusiers so it is the hull design that marks it out.

And the Hybrid tech can make sense in boat, even well used boats sit idle for days at a time and this gives the solar panels time to recharge the batteries, even in the UK. A 20 mile electric range doesn't sound much but that could be a days cruising inland, get you in and out a large speed restricted harbour for nothing or a slow potter round the bay. They can also power appliances on board directly so no need to fit or run a generator.

I'm not saying the Greenline is the answer to everybodys problems, and saving energy must seem a bit irrelavent to a large mobo owner, but is a significant and well designed boat and makes a lot of sense for the future. Although id probably go for the diesel only version, as thats all I could afford

Well I said that hybrid is a dead end technology so, yes, quite possibly I have a downer on it! IMHO, it's a short term expediency that car makers have adopted to meet forthcoming emissions regulations and is definitely not the long term solution to the world's transport problems. I don't doubt though that it has a place in individual situations and processes where significant efficiency savings can be made.
The fact that the Greenline has a yacht type hull design is neither here nor there. If a yacht type hull design was significantly more efficient than other mobo hull designs, every mobo manufacturer would have adopted it by now. Sorry to be cynical but maybe the reason the Greenline is so cheap is because the designers adapted an existing yacht hull design or because the design can be used across both mobo and sailing hulls.
I don't accept that the competition for this boat is limited to other shaftdrive boats of a similar size either. Very few buyers of this size of boat would limit themselves to looking at just shaftdrive options. I would guess that many buyers might look at the Greenline solely in the hope that it would offer better fuel efficiency and then conclude that, in fact, an outdrive boat still offers better efficiency. Yes I think it has a potential market on the inland waterways where the electric side of it's hybrid power train can be more utilised but not as a coastal cruiser.
The solar charging part is a bit of a red herring. If you leave a Greenline in a marina you are going to plug it into shorepower because you couldn't trust that it would be sufficiently light to keep the batteries topped up. Would you leave a boat unconnected to shorepower when the bilge pumps are entirely dependent on the batteries? I wouldn't. Not to save a few pennies on leccy

 

[rwoofer]

As a raggie this is exactly the type of boat that would convert me to powerboat irrespective of the hybrid bit. It is indeed something I'm considering as I've got 3 young girls which is hard work on land let alone on the water. Really can't see much competition

Pros:
Hull that looks like it can take all weathers at cruising speed.
Very flat after sections together with the wings makes me think it will be stable at anchor.
Low maintenance costs on propulsion (shaft drive and low power engine)
Looks like it will take the ground.
Decent range to go places (as a raggie I've often done 1000+ miles in a summer cruise)
Great use of LOA to keep marina costs down.

Cons:
Would have been nice to have a couple single berths under the saloon somewhere.

I'm also less convinced about the hybrid bit, but everything else looks pretty unique as a package.

 

[Andrew_Fanner]

Ignoring price, from my pov and reading again.

Pro
1. Probably uses less fuel than I do at present
2. Gee whiz that's clever factor (should it be Apple's iBoat?)
3. Mostly electric
4. Not unattractive

Con
1. Acoomodation is awful for a boat that size.
2. Don't like the implication of the keels breaking off easily. Could be a noghtmare inland with shallow water and floating rubbish
3. The unique selling points are predominantly extras
4. I'm unconvinced by solar panels in the UK for much beyond battery topup on a day to day basis.
5. I like being in the open and that's a wheelhouse.

 

[Chris_d]

Would you leave a boat unconnected to shorepower when the bilge pumps are entirely dependent on the batteries? I wouldn't. Not to save a few pennies on leccy

Yes and i do 365 days a year, there are a lot of moorings out there without power. So a solar panel might be handy

 

[rafiki_]

Sorry to go a bit off track, but why the downer on the Prius? I run a fleet of Prius and Honda hybrids, plus others ranging from Mondeo and Avensis diesels to Jags and Transits. The Prius is a great car in the urban environment, averageing over 40mpg in London, 30 for the Honda, and 33 ish for the Avensis and Mondeo. Jags do 26 ish. If travelling inter-urban, take a diesel. Simples. Around town, the hybrid Prius. Plus the reliability is incredible. We just tank and spank them. Body work and interiro hold up really well.

What does this man for boats? Again, quite simple. At low speeds, boats need very little engery to move. We can haul quite a big boat ourselves when mooring. To get any sort of speed, where you have the displace lots of water, or climb on to the plane, boats need huge energy. Batteries have a faction of the engery density of diesel/petrol and will never power a large boat at speed.

The real issue for us is the longterm affordability of fossil fuel. UK gov says fossil fuel will be uneconomic come 2050, and really expensive come 2025. Current bio fuel is expensive, and has other issues. We need a breakthrough technology in this area, or we will all be sat on our boats, and just haul them around the pontoon in 20 years time!!

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Sorry to go a bit off track, but why the downer on the Prius? I run a fleet of Prius and Honda hybrids, plus others ranging from Mondeo and Avensis diesels to Jags and Transits. The Prius is a great car in the urban environment, averageing over 40mpg in London, 30 for the Honda, and 33 ish for the Avensis and Mondeo. Jags do 26 ish. If travelling inter-urban, take a diesel. Simples. Around town, the hybrid Prius. Plus the reliability is incredible. We just tank and spank them. Body work and interiro hold up really well.

What does this man for boats? Again, quite simple. At low speeds, boats need very little engery to move. We can haul quite a big boat ourselves when mooring. To get any sort of speed, where you have the displace lots of water, or climb on to the plane, boats need huge energy. Batteries have a faction of the engery density of diesel/petrol and will never power a large boat at speed.

The real issue for us is the longterm affordability of fossil fuel. UK gov says fossil fuel will be uneconomic come 2050, and really expensive come 2025. Current bio fuel is expensive, and has other issues. We need a breakthrough technology in this area, or we will all be sat on our boats, and just haul them around the pontoon in 20 years time!!

I don't doubt that the Pious is good in an urban environment because like the Greenline boat, the electric motor can do more work at slower speeds. Unfortunately very few of us drive only in urban environments and drive the Pious at higher speeds, particularly on motorways, and the economy plummets. I have 2 friends with Pious cars and they are both very disappointed with the economy they are achieving which is around 35 mpg but then they do a mix of town and motorway driving. In fact they are so disappointed that they are both considering selling their cars. The Pious is simply not anywhere near as economical in everyday driving as Toyota claim. A Golf diesel or a BMW 320d would be more economical.
Then I have a problem with the hybrid design. Firstly those batteries are heavy and precious metals are used in their manufacture. Those precious metals are mined in some of the most inaccessible places in the world and then transported to Japan. That doesn't sound very green to me. Second who knows how long these batteries will last? How much will they cost to replace and how will they be disposed of? Lastly, they take up a lot of boot space. Then there is the car itself. I doubt if there's a more boring car to drive, sluggish and dull witted.
The Pious was developed for the US market and to get Toyota out of a hole because they didn't have a range of diesel engines at the time. As I say, I think the average small/medium sized diesel car is more economical than a Pious. The next step in hybrid car design looks like being a diesel hybrid with plug in capability. That marries the economy of a diesel engine with a hybrid electric motor and the ability to recharge the batteries without running the engine. It would certainly be a whole lot more economical than a Pious. Is it the answer to the world running out of fossil fuel. Of course not. I guess thats going to be hydrogen fuel cell but we're probly 20 yrs away from that

 

[photodog]

I cant help but think that a hybrid boat is a solution looking for a problem....

We already have a proven system for propelling boats that doesnt require a motor...
Why spend the best part of 150k on a 33 foot hybrid when for half the price you can get a decent yacht?

 

[apollo]

I cant help but think that a hybrid boat is a solution looking for a problem....

We already have a proven system for propelling boats that doesnt require a motor...
Why spend the best part of 150k on a 33 foot hybrid when for half the price you can get a decent yacht?

......cos the mast won't go under the bridges on inland waterways?

 

[Andrew_Fanner]

......cos the mast won't go under the bridges on inland waterways?

Potter Heigham. However, the point remains very valid. As technology hybrids are interesting, but I feel they are a marketing-led blind alley. Why didn't the designers go full diesel electric with twin pods?

 

[Chris_d]

I cant help but think that a hybrid boat is a solution looking for a problem....

We already have a proven system for propelling boats that doesnt require a motor...
Why spend the best part of 150k on a 33 foot hybrid when for half the price you can get a decent yacht?

Where do you start! apart from not being able to go under bridges or up shallow creeks or rivers, being dead slow, poor accomodation, needing competant crew, don't go in straight line, you also turn into a miserable bugger who whinges about wash, col regs and any boat without a mast

Actualy i've done loads of sailing but as I live by a river it don't make sense, but whats wrong with liking any kind of boat?

 

[photodog]

Actualy i've done loads of sailing but as I live by a river it don't make sense, but whats wrong with liking any kind of boat?

Actually I quite like it... make a good boat for a couple... and about right for the UK weather as well...

But I would stick with a small diesel.. or maybe 2....

That solar is gonna do bugger all... and add a lot of weight!

A couple of wind generators would be more usefulll....

There are some hybrid yachts about now... All electric propulsion strikes me as more sensible... and a generator....

 

[Adrianwool]

I personally have a concern about hybrids, (whether it be cars or boats), and I wonder whether they are on the market to salve our consciousness in regard to 'green credentials', or whether they are a marketing ploy.

As someone mentioned earlier in this discussion batteries are full of precious metals which have to be transported long distances for battery manufacture. Batteries (at the end of their working life) are also fairly nasty things to dispose of/recycle. When you plug in to shorepower the electricity will be coming from a powerstation most likely powerd by coal/gas/nuclear. I think the calculation to be done (and I do not profess to know how, but I am sure someone does), is an energy input vs 'green savings' over say a ten year period for such a vessel.

Perhaps the way to go for marine propulsion is a two pronged approach as we are seeing in the motor vehicle industry

Efficient diesel engines exploiting technology to produce more power (RELIABLY) from smaller sized engines with less CO2 production.

A step back from installing ever larger engines into motorboats, this I believe makes us a prime target for the green brigade, and, lets face it uses up dwindling resources faster. The arguement that 'If I can afford it I should be allowed the freedom to do it', and 'I need to cruise at 35knots as opposed to 30'. This is likely to play into the hands of those who consider that we need regulating in what we do, use, etc.

If we are to preserve our passion for motorboating then I believe we need to have a series of 'countermeasures' to derail the ambition of the increasingly powerful green lobby. The best approach to this will be to show our 'green credentials' before something unacceptable is imposed upon us.

 

[Andrew_Fanner]

>>>
If we are to preserve our passion for motorboating then I believe we need to have a series of 'countermeasures' to derail the ambition of the increasingly powerful green lobby. The best approach to this will be to show our 'green credentials' before something unacceptable is imposed upon us.
>>>
Can't we just put the greens into treadmills connected to generators on a "are you sure you advocate this" basis?

Yes, all the conserve and use less stuff is fine, but many folk own older craft designed and built before any of these idea(l)s were invented. If you have such, there's not so much you can do with an elderly Perkins or venerable Ford and the greenies idea of scrapping the boat gets limited sympathy...

 

[kcrane]

The real issue for us is the longterm affordability of fossil fuel. UK gov says fossil fuel will be uneconomic come 2050, and really expensive come 2025.

I don't think there will be a day on which it will be uneconomic, and so none will be bought, nor a day on which oil runs out completely.

Oil will get more expensive in fits and starts as we've seen over the last few years. As it gets more expensive the economic case for alternatives will be made. Money will flow into research and the alternatives will improve.

At some point there will be enough momentum behind one alternative or the other. I can think of two obvious ones, hydrogen and nuclear. As far as I can tell any real alternative to oil needs a vast investment in infrastructure, for example to distribute hydrogen or creating charging points to distribute nuclear generated electricity.

In parallel there will be lobbying of governments from those who feel they have a right to travel (car, rail, plane etc) but for whom it is getting too expensive.

At some tipping point the new businesses (battery & fuel cell manufacturers), older business (BP, Shell etc) and the Government will finally create the new infrastructure.

As that happens, the price of oil will peak, and start to come down before demand actually wanes, as investors forecast reduced requirements in the future. Thereafter it can continue to be used as a raw material (plastics etc) and as fuel where high energy density is needed, like airplanes and large powerboats.

If that could happen by a week on Thursday when I need to fill up with 300 gallons, that would be nice.