Mayday procedure form

[tcm]

Re: WRONG, Swagman

Fine. The point i was (admittedly very laboriously) making is that it is not utterly imperative.

A t-bone is a (potential) nice slow sinking too, with all on board and the daftness was external makingf it v cool. I gave more extreme examples.

 

[BrendanS]

Re: WRONG, Swagman

It was fairly imperative. It sank shortly after, but they'd taken them off by helicopter by then, as not far off Lee on Solent.

 

[tcm]

Re: WRONG, Swagman

hm. I spose i was imagining mayday that didn't require CG to merely look out of the window, and where the boat sank in perhaps more than 4metres of water and even when sunck still had mast showing above water and all in calm conditions, hm?

Let's say somewhere perhaps not in the solent where ch16 is monitored like nowhere else on earth, like n the med or caribeean or lots of places where ch16 isn't monitored much in english nor in any language if at all as it is in solent and where therefore getting a nice vhf set and laminated thingy is therefore a touch useless and a bit more weight mite be applied to sorting it out oneself.

 

[BrendanS]

Re: WRONG, Swagman

the peeps at end of radio couldn't see it, so just as imperative as in any other location on the planet.
It was a mobo,. so no masts to show above water when tide came in.

He did state that he had dinghy/rib in water and ready to get family into it, if it became necessary.

You'd have to have been there listening into Ch16 to appreciate calmness and professionalism, and all answers to QHM. QHM set the dogs on the skipper who sank them, but I never did hear the outcome.

 

[tcm]

Re: WRONG, Swagman

well, thanks for recognising the point i was making, not.

My point was that some maydays inviolve an element of emergency slightly higher than that experienced by a near-stationary mobo being whacked by a raggie whilst located somewhere within the Dockyard Port of Portsmouth.

 

[Swagman]

Re: WRONG, Swagman

[ QUOTE ]
No, my info is direct from CG. And you seem inexp in these matters in real life, i think?

The info i gave was from CG aftermath of the Fairview yacht chrtered by Met Police in 1997 ish which did actually make a call and said "is any one there? No?" but no positon and all died in the wreck off IOW. The cg went up and tried to find scan for them, but no use.

I specifically gave caveats regarding my wrong procedure, but you decided to make a tsk tsk style post. Fair enough, but you could have thought more.

I say again - CG WILL respond to "MAYDAY at the needles" . But fuller info better, of course, as i said.

CG offered the advice that they WOULD respond with the briefest of info, to safety course delegates.

Swagman, i bleive you have never been in a real MOB, or a real near-sinking.
I've been in both, shorthanded, and in my exp I and everyone wd rather try pick up kids etc than ponce about with repeating vhf thingys.

Or, someones effort is needed trying to stop a leak with water a foot deep in the saloon instead of extended blathering on vhf, right now. NOW!

If an abbreviated version is an option and i can continue later with portable vhf to hand - i and anyone would most defintely do the same. Remebr ,they know that a real emrgency is not like on the course - evveryoe else might be dead already and you under the fallen mast. Fancy your mayday three time now, hm?

It's an emergency, so pick the emergency you'd like. Someone is dying on you. Praps you. Your wife. Your kids. Go on - say that full procedure. Time yourself. Could have done something there to help them perhaps instead of the final "mayday Yacht temptress of St peter port" - and not even given out your damn position yet? I bet you could've.

My info was useful and your silly whingeing an example of trying to look good when my post made clear it was not "best practise" but expedient in a real-world situation.

CG incidentally is not at all alone in this: pick up the phone, hit 999 and just leave the hanset and the cops will arrive. Do not try this cos a large amount of cops arrive and i only know it cos toddler kids hit these numbers at 5am 10 years ago.

It's not "dangerous" to give abbreviated mayday. Shorthanded with two or three, if one was in the water, i'd have eyes and helm working to get you out. I would then be forced to try mayday on portable, not downstairs with the laminated wassername. The pratting about with fenders over the side on a course is a zillion miles from a real scenario.

Soonish, after initial quick mayday, as others say, i would expand and say yep, no joke, boatname, three on board etc. I have heard a few maydays and nearly none follow utterly correct format.

Solent CG don't do fishing btw. And i'd guess that more than one other boat would relay the message too if no reponse from CG. Again, way out at sea, different matter.

Think about it - with flames swishing through the engineroom - exactly how long dya reckon yer batteries and hence vhf will last, hm? Or if there's a fire - are you totally happy down below in the wooden, fabric-loaded saloon, hm?

Contentious, praps, but I say that if you are calm enuf to get out a full mayday with full details first time (laughably almost - including from another poster "uncontrollable engine fire" yeah - and he's on the blimmin saloon vhf above the fuel tank?!!) then you are a radio operator on a ship, or with big 12+ offshore probably pro crew with experince of people dying too.

It's a real proper emergency, ok? Someone's child is over the side praps. Now, try telling Mum or Dad to go and do a nice mayday like on that course, remember? Bollx! In real life you are in fact all on to scream No and hopefully prevent him/her or even both from jumping in after them as well.

All in my actual experience. Apologies if this read badly. Tho not for the content.

[/ QUOTE ]

You sound arrogantly upset tcm. Maybe the CG you claim gave this advice was not aware you'd take on the job of convincing the rest of the world to abandon the safety procedures the other authorities have educated us to adopt.

Or maybe your CG read a few of your long winded posts and decided to give you the advice privately, in the hope it may reduce the amount of your personal verbal output?

Please feel free to continue spluttering. But please do not expect anyone to risk their life on your 'procedures' when the rest of the world relies on another set which actually works OK.

Cheers
JOHN

PS And yes tcm, I do have some limited radio and sailing experience. In 1991 we sailed to the aid of a sinking yacht offshore in West Australia (all crew saved), and in 1993 helped out another sinking yacht who hit the bricks off Fremantle Harbour at night (all crew saved and boat beached).

 

[alant]

Re: Mayday procedure - FROM or TO?

Giving your position is probably the most important bit of info to broadcast. Remember the incident in 1997 when 3 people were lost in the Needles Channel, with a Mayday Alert, but no position given.

'Position' reference is one of my personal 'rants' & I apologise for this.
eg - we are advised that the CG would like & prefer your position (if not available as Lat/Long etc) given as a bearing FROM a known 'object', so that rescue services can run down the bearing given.

Fine in theory, but the person calling the Mayday, will probably have a bearing TO a fixed object, which while they are already in a stressful (even panic) situation, must now try to convert/calculate as a bearing FROM, with obvious possibilities of an error.

The CG, in a calm & relatively pleasant environment, is surely in a much better position to do this conversion & having discussed this with CG's, say they really don't mind how its done in practice.

So why do we try to complicate & possibly confuse.

 

[duncan]

Re: Mayday procedure - FROM or TO?

[ QUOTE ]
So why do we try to complicate & possibly confuse.

[/ QUOTE ]
understand and agree with you but would suggest that (1) it's about standardisation in case of confusion re from or to adn (2) in the total abscence of any other information you should at least be able to approximate the course you were on, the distance you have travelled and the place you started! Thus the standard is 'from'.
If you have the luxury of being able to take a fix on somewhere, a charted position etc then the hardship of calculating a from is nothing compared to the guy who was sailing one minute and going down rather quickly the next
and manages to get off a garbled frantic call.

Personally I am still concerned that I have to spend a whole 5 secs pushing that red button!

 

[david_bagshaw]

one of the ofcom web pages you are looking for.

the procedure for dsc sets is slightly different, however will leave that for one of the instructors here it iterate.

fortunately not been in the situation of needing to do a mayday so never put it to the test.

 

[Vulcan]

Re: WRONG, Swagman

The MAYDAY format is there for a purpose as others have said: vhf reception; accurate information; appropriate response; etc.

Regular training, a laminated card next to the vhf, and knowing your position will help save lives. I don't think panic stations and any old message will be as effective.

 

[Bluebird]

This thread has been a great advert for the efficacy of DSC.

No matter where you are in the world, the receiving DSC stations know who you are, where you are and, if you've got another five seconds what the problem is, and when you sent the Mayday. All sent out in five seconds. And it keeps on sending it every 4 minutes or so - or as long as the batteries last!

Of course, this must be followed up with a Mayday call to alert those without DSC but the reality is if you don't have time because you are short handed then the distress call is made and, hopefully, help is on the way.

It's hard to believe that there are still some luddites out there that don't want DSC!

KiloCharlie

 

[tcm]

Re: heyho

I say again, the CG will act on mayday and positon info alone.

In extremis, one can give that info alone, and perhaps give more info later if possible. Shorthanded, one might not have time (or be able) to go below and do the full call.

It's not too hard a concept to grasp is it?

btw, cutting and pasting my post makes your posts longer than mine. Not needed, But i know you like longwinded stuff so feel free to continue!...

 

[Swagman]

Re: heyho

Thanks for the offer tcm, but I think that's enough on this one.
JOHN

 

[WayneS]

Thanks for all the responses folks. Have all the info that I need.

Seems to have been a lively debate. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Cheers

Wayne

 

[TheBoatman]

Re: heyho

tcm
I'm with you on this one and against Swagman.

I've always believed that the CG has got the order wrong and if I found myself in the s**t I would always call mayday 3 times to get everyones attention, this lets everone know you're in the s**t, vessels name twice - yes twice, then give position and number of persons aboard.
That way CG knows I'm in it, where I am and how many people to look for the rest is all bye the way.

At the end of the day the RNLI or CG chopper aren't going to go any faster or slower to get to you, despite whether you've got a fire or MOB or sinking - it's one speed only - flat out.

Sorry Swagman but tcm's version is closer to realality!!

 

[Guest]

Blimey ..... you lot really get in a pickel !!!

Mayday 3x
Name OR Call sign 3x
Mayday
Name or Call sign

Reason for this "long-winded" Mayday / Name-callsign intro .... is that the operator, ship or or other vessel on hearing the call - brain kicks into gear just about at the end of the intro ! It also gives that frraction of a second to get organised / others to shut-up so you can listen ....

Position Lat -Long or bearing / ref. FROM a point
Nature of distress
Other relevant info such as red flares every 2 minutes or whatever ...
Over

The order and style was set up many years ago to standardise a serious call and to get people to recognise a call without too much interpretation. You have to remember that YOU understand and speak english as a mother tongue. The message format was designed to cater for ALL nationalities ........

When in Marine College and doing my signals ... the lecturer - ex RN COP of Signals .... a very famous Chiefy Tozer at Plymouth .... he used to make fun of Shipping Co's names for ships .... especially Shell Tankers - where we used Latin names of Shells. He advised that Call-sign was best as it did two distinct things ... was instantly recognisable as a call-sign and reference could be found to give exact details of vessel, also it was shorter and easier to do than many ships names ... yachts - well I think he would have had a field day with some of those !!

My final comment ......... I 100% disagree with any playing around with the format ..... if you are a CG or other sea-person and you hear a call as above .... you instantly know what it is ... you know what you will hear ... send a different style or format .... many will ignore as the brain trigger is not activated .............. CG hopefully not. But should they only realise when the recording is played back later ... then sad ! for the sake of a smart one who knew better than years and years of Signals ..... The International Code of Signals, even PBO almanac has the proper format .... its available freely all over the place ... why play at it !

 

[Guest]

Re: Mayday procedure - FROM or TO?

The From - To bit is often acedemic ..... as it is used normally in coastal situations ... giving immediate indication of which From or To .... cause a boat aint doing Mayday on land !!!

The above is a repeat of a statement to me by RAF Rescue Personnel Mountbatten Plymouth.... when I was a Cadet doing my tickets.

Ok there are situtaions where a from / to can equally apply .... but usually one will be obvious - other not. As one says - CG don't mind as long as they a point of reference to work from ....

 

[alant]

Re: Mayday procedure - FROM or TO?

The From - To bit is often acedemic
________________________________

Come on Nigel, since when is a MAYDAY in any way academic?
The vessel/people are in an extremis situation, the caller probably (on a yacht anyway) is not professional Navy/MN & will "often" be in a 'panic' mode. Just listen to the many panicky & erroneous 'non-urgent' calls to CG made by yachties in the Solent.
Expecting them to also do sums (whilst the correct method) is a bit much.
Thank God for DSC.

 

[Guest]

Pls ... Alant ... read it again ....

I am not saying Mayday is acedemic ... far from it having been involved in more than a few instances at sea ... it is a panicky situation for both those in trouble and those trying to help ...

My wording "acedemic" was in relation to the use of From - to ... which most cases is obvious as to which way the position is .... I am saying that CG / others are clever enough to realise if a position puts a boat On / off land .....

The post was prompted by a couple of posts dictating that FROM is absolute ... in fact the CG will accept either, officially and written it is stated as FROM ... as it has to be documented to create the format ....

Please read again as intended ....

 

[duncan]

Re: Pls ... Alant ... read it again ....

I agree with Alant re the maths, and I hope you didn't take my justification of why 'from' was standardised rather the 'to' as a dictate that it is an absolute!

As you suggest in inshore waters you have pretty much everything going for you - likely clarity of call (certainly to a CG receiver); they can interpret if you inadvertantly slip up (you are as likely in a panick to say to when you mean from as screw up the calcs I suspect) and there on top of that help may not be far away (but may have it's radio switched off to avoid those annoying DSC alerts /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif according to many on here).