Mayday or Relay or ?

[jonjo]

A recent UK yachting magazine issue has an account of a Brit motor boater going to the aid of a small French yacht that got into trouble in the Alderney Race.

After many hours of standing by and trying to sort things out a decision was made to call out a life boat.

In general if a yacht has to put out a VHF distress call on behalf of another vessel, should one initiate the VHF call with a Mayday or is this a Mayday Relay?

Let's firm up the question with an example nearer to home. You are heading up the main Needles channel early in the season at dusk in fresh SW conditions at low water, no other boats are around then you spot a yacht pounding aground on the windward side of Shingles bank and notice their mast has buckled over. You edge in cautiously for a closer look, the crew wave their arms slowly and then release an orange smoke flare. Do you issue a VHF Mayday, a Mayday Relay or something else?

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[Benbow]

In the situation you describe a mayday relay is clearly the correct call; you are relaying their distress signal.
If you see a vessel which you think MAY be in distress I supose the situation is open to interpretation.




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[Dave99]

Always a mayday relay if its someone elses distress signal ie. you see a flare, smoke etc.

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[graham]

If the other vessel is obviously in immediate danger or you see distress signals then a Mayday Relay is correct.

If you suspect another vessel MAY be in danger why not call the CG by ordinary working channel and simply pass to them your concerns/observations.

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[jonjo]

Thanks, you confirmed my hunch on what would be the correct procedure.

I had to ask because I have never seen this scenario documented in any training material which is strange considering it is the distress situation that a typical yachtsman is most likely to encounter.

I suppose standard text book Mayday messages are not too useful and the message format has to be invented for the situation?

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[jonjo]

Ok just to pursue this a bit further...

If that "vessel" on the Shingles bank was a sea canoe or a wind surfer I assume a Mayday Relay is still correct?

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[Solitaire]

Just to clarify - a Mayday Relay should be made in the following circumstances:

a) the station in distress cannot itself transmit a distress message.
b) sighting a non-radio distress signal - flares, fire, flags or shapes - including the waveing of arms.
c) although not in a position to render assistance, you have heard a distress message which has not been acknowledged.

When a station, not herself in distress, is transmitting a Mayday Relay this fact must be made quite clear. If this is not done, direction finding bearings might be taken on the station transmitting the relay and assiatcnce could be directed to the wrong position.

The above words are contained within the RYA VHF radio manual - VHF G22/02.

Basically, unless you are the vessel "in immediate need of assistance" then all other calls should be a Mayday Relay. However , you could put up a Pan Pan call to all ships or to a specific coastguard station if the you were to see a vessel that is "adrift" and not in immediate danger.You need to assess the situation. Both Pan Pan and Securite can be upgraded if required.

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[Solitaire]

Taking your example of a sea canoe or windsurfer aground on the Shingles bank; this could be a different ball park! If the canoe or surf board are, for example smashed up, and the tide is rising fast, then you would deem that the individual/s is/are in urgent need of assistance as life is in immediate danger. Therefore Mayday Relay! If both "vessels" are intact then a rising tide will take them off so what's the problem. In this case a call on ch 67 would alert the CG to the situation and you as the "on station" vessel may be asked to perform such duties as required by the CG and keep them informed of the situation untill a suitable conclusion is reached - e.g launching of a lifeboat or helicopter.

All IMHO.

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[Twister_Ken]

Certificated

Have you done your Short Range Certificate (you are obliged to if you are going to use VHF without the supervision of a certicate holder). If you have, then you'll be able to answer your own question.

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[tome]

Re: Certificated

To be honest Ken, I'm not sure you're right. Short one-shot qualifying courses such as VHF are notoriously inadequate for training, and good procedure requires practice and assimilation. Questioning the obvious is a good step along the way.

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[Solitaire]

Re: Certificated

Not everybody is blessed with your considerable expereince! The man asked a question concerning issues of safety. I'm sure he has done his SRC, but there are only so many scenarios that can be covered on the course. In my view the forum is for such subjects to be raised and for people to benefit. Such topics as this may save a life!

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[Twister_Ken]

Re: Certificated

The SRC course I did (albeit it may be atypical) made it perfectly clear that a Mayday (imminent danger to life or property) is initiaited only for your own vessel. A Mayday concerning another vessel or situation must be a Mayday Relay. And certainly it was a scenariao covered in various ways during the day's course. One example I remember was "You are at anchor in a river when you see a small speedboat hit a pile and sink. What message do you send?"

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[TheBoatman]

Re: Certificated

Ken
I would agree with your interpretation. I would also add that the moment the CG hears the word "relay" they know that the boat trasmitting the traffic is not the vessel in trouble.

I think its time HMCG jumped in here!

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[Solitaire]

Re: Certificated

This is an intersting debate. I'm doing the VHF/DSC instructor course next week and I'm going to pull this thread off for discussion. I've spent the last few weeks going through the syllabus and putting together presentations for the course so am well versed in the theory. I also spent a morning in a CG station discussing the whole issue of the best forms of communication - and the worst! I've also sat in on the VHF/DSC course as observer and helper. You can only impart so much information and the level of student varies. Some already hold SRC's and need to upgrade to the new DSC cert. Others have never even touched a VHF set. They are all in the one "class". Some are young, some are retired and now want to take up sailing/powerboating in their retirement. The level or information absorbtion and retention differs. The course is 1 day, there is a lot that has to be imparted in that time and do the exam at the end of it. When I took my original course it was at the inshore lifeboat station in Stokes Bay - it was over 2 days! It was a very good and practical course with "first hand" tuition. DSC should make thing simpler, once the majority have sets, but many willl never have to use their sets in"anger" so things taught on a one day course fade. Perhaps, there should be a retest every so often. Now there's the start of another debate!

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[TheBoatman]

Re: Certificated

David
Your gonna open up a can of worms here<s>

What I would say is that (maybe) you should encourge your candidates to dream up their own emergency senario's after they have taken the course.
On the course you will give them some to think of but tell them to go away and practice on their own senario's. I have found that it does greatly improve your VHF manner and hones your general skills so that when you find yourself in a position of having to talk to a CG station you generally tend to get it right.
One more thing, I have found that people that don't normally use a VHF accept for safety traffic and yaking to a marina, tend not to listen to what is being said to them in an emergency situation, they are so tied up with what they are going to say next that they miss what is being said to them. IMHO

Best of luck with the instructors course.

Peter

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[tome]

Re: Certificated

It's well past my bed-time, but here I am.

To move away from VHF take a look at first aid. I've lost track of the number of courses I've done over the years. I can say with perfect honesty that every one has taught me a little bit more. Why? Because it's about constant reinforcement. I can now cope with burns and epilspsy whereas in early days I struggled with minor injuries. One day courses are the pits of learning, especially if you get a certificate at the end.

VHF is no different. I'm lucky to have used it professionally for a number of years, ie thinking before transmittting and taking a pride in the brevity of transmission. Listen to ch 11 (QHM) to hear economy of transmission by he way.

I liked the honesty of this post.
Tom

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[Solitaire]

Re: Certificated

Thanks Peter.

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[starboard]

Re: Certificated

Having spent a good few years as 2nd coxswain with the RNLI whatever prefix you use ( the correct in this case would be Mayday relay) do not hesitate to inform the CG if you fell concern for someone's situation. The coastguard may ask you to standby and observe whilst they further asses the situation and 99% of the times will launch the nearest Lifeboat. Do not be tempted to put your own vessel at risk in an attempt to assist...you would not believe how many times that turns to further grief for all concerned. Also do not be afraid to over react, the lifeboat crew will always prefer to launch and not be required than launch once the situation has deteriorated beyond an easy solution.

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[Sybarite]

The two examples cited are very different. I think a pan-pan call is appropriate in the first instance. If in fact there appears to imminent danger to lives (which is not evident from the description; if you are standing by then there would not appear to danger to life) it would be a mayday relay. However because the coast guard does an RDF on your signal, if you do send out a mayday you are not leading anybody astray.

The second case is clearly a mayday relay.

IMHO

John

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[HMCG]

Re: Certificated

I have read through the whole thread up until now. In the main all of the answers are correct.

If you sight another vessel which is indicating that it is distress (IE orange smoke. red flare, slow waving of arms, burning of tar, flashing SOS etc etc) then the correct action is to transmit a MAYDAY RELAY as soon as possible.. It should make no difference that you do not feel that it warants a MAYDAY RELAY as you do not always have all of the facts (in the case of grounding someone may have been seriously injured in the process).

If you see another vessel which you beleive MAY be in distress but they are not giving any signals then I would suggest that a PAN PAN on CH16 would be appropriate until you can clarify the situation, unless it is an obvious problem like sinking fast.

What I would say though is that if you are calling the Coastguard about the safety of another vessel then it should be done using either DSC or VHF CH16 NOT ch67. This will mean that there is a chance of the other vessel hearing you talking about them.

In all cases we will not be reading the riot act if you get it wrong. Even professional radio operators get it wrong now and again (including HMCG).

I hope this helps matters.

Regards,

HMCG

<hr width=100% size=1>These are my own thoughts not the MCA's