Maybe not quite as rosy at Princess

[Thundergod]

I have been looking att the V39 since its launch have become seriously interested in ordering one. Untill i saw the new prices here in Sweden this year. At its launch a few years ago the starting price in Sweden was around 350-360000 euro. This year the starting price is around 470000 euro. Add all extras and you will easy pass 500k euro. Thas is rather insane for a V39 i think. I dont really now whats in this increase, but a lot has to do with the exchange rates i believe. What is the starting price in the UK in sterling this year? Also looked at the V52 and the increase on that model is almost 300k euro since its launch.
Anyway it is around 200k euro more than for example a Bavaria 400 sport or similar. Of course the V39 has better finnish etc. But that is a far to big difference in price for many buyers i think.
It s about the same story as for Fairline Targa 38 GT. The price increase in just a few years is very big. I would be prepare to pay around 100k more for a V39 than a extremly well speced Bavaria. but 200k euro or even more is just to much.

 

[admillington]

I have been looking att the V39 since its launch have become seriously interested in ordering one. Untill i saw the new prices here in Sweden this year. At its launch a few years ago the starting price in Sweden was around 350-360000 euro. This year the starting price is around 470000 euro. Add all extras and you will easy pass 500k euro. Thas is rather insane for a V39 i think. I dont really now whats in this increase, but a lot has to do with the exchange rates i believe. What is the starting price in the UK in sterling this year? Also looked at the V52 and the increase on that model is almost 300k euro since its launch.
Anyway it is around 200k euro more than for example a Bavaria 400 sport or similar. Of course the V39 has better finnish etc. But that is a far to big difference in price for many buyers i think.
It s about the same story as for Fairline Targa 38 GT. The price increase in just a few years is very big. I would be prepare to pay around 100k more for a V39 than a extremly well speced Bavaria. but 200k euro or even more is just to much.

http://www.boats.co.uk/boats-for-sale/princess-v39-992

There are better deals around on stock boats.

 

[Portofino]

As an observation -for others to interpret ---- over the years here in La Napoule the HQ for Princess.Fr ,in July we noticed there where no stock boats -none at all .
Initial thoughts -all lent out on a rally ,photo shoot or what ever? Defo not a show -cos nowts on.
Today (last week in August ) still no stock ,other stuff in the 1/2 dozen or so births that used to hold new boats for PDI or stock stuff ,now empty .
Meanwhile Sunseeker ( also HQ for SS .Fr ) has had a private preview -red carpet n all for new Hatten 65 ,Pred 57 , Hatten somthing or other -52? This is prior to Cannes in a few weeks -SS stock s starting to arrive , and given private reviews

But no Prinny Stuff? ----- erh Why ?

Portofino -your spy in the SoF

 

[DougH]

As an observation -for others to interpret ---- over the years here in La Napoule the HQ for Princess.Fr ,in July we noticed there where no stock boats -none at all .
Initial thoughts -all lent out on a rally ,photo shoot or what ever? Defo not a show -cos nowts on.
Today (last week in August ) still no stock ,other stuff in the 1/2 dozen or so births that used to hold new boats for PDI or stock stuff ,now empty .

But no Prinny Stuff? ----- erh Why ?

Portofino -your spy in the SoF

Maybe Essex Boatyards have sold them already.:encouragement:

 

[admillington]

As an observation -for others to interpret ---- over the years here in La Napoule the HQ for Princess.Fr ,in July we noticed there where no stock boats -none at all .
Initial thoughts -all lent out on a rally ,photo shoot or what ever? Defo not a show -cos nowts on.
Today (last week in August ) still no stock ,other stuff in the 1/2 dozen or so births that used to hold new boats for PDI or stock stuff ,now empty .
Meanwhile Sunseeker ( also HQ for SS .Fr ) has had a private preview -red carpet n all for new Hatten 65 ,Pred 57 , Hatten somthing or other -52? This is prior to Cannes in a few weeks -SS stock s starting to arrive , and given private reviews

But no Prinny Stuff? ----- erh Why ?

Portofino -your spy in the SoF

I know that Fairline are now building to customer orders and deposits so there is no stock around - there are quite a few "ex - demonstrators" large Princesses on the PMYS website so maybe the dealers don't want to buy more stock.

 

[petem]

I know that Fairline are now building to customer orders and deposits so there is no stock around - there are quite a few "ex - demonstrators" large Princesses on the PMYS website so maybe the dealers don't want to buy more stock.

That's interesting. Might explain why Fairline have no flybridges >48ft at SIBS.

 

[nicho]

I get the impression that they are building for stock - large, brand new boats with for sale signs on them in Swanwick. In the motor industry, when the going gets tough, strikes are often "engineered" to stop the production lines whilst stocks are run down, and the workers are not paid.

 

[jrudge]

Part of the changes when Essex gave up Fairline was the suggestion that Fairline would only be building to order. This was in large part with the aim of margin enhancement as I understand.

Fine in theory but they have factories full of workers paid to build boats.

Dealers with no skin on the game or stock. Not a good idea. No real incentive to shift stock.

it also means that any customer is going to have to wait say 6 months for a boat.

Personally can't see it working / Fairline actually stopping production waiting for the new and small dealers to shift boats. We will see.

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

I know that Fairline are now building to customer orders and deposits so there is no stock around - there are quite a few "ex - demonstrators" large Princesses on the PMYS website so maybe the dealers don't want to buy more stock.

In fairness that has always been the case with PMYS - they've always* had a number of new ex-demo/immediate availability stock boats listed on their website.

*at least since about 2008 when I started taking an interest in new stock Princesses

 

[admillington]

That's interesting. Might explain why Fairline have no flybridges >48ft at SIBS.

A number of current Fairline owners were offered a Squadron 65 with a view that it was to go to the Southampton Boat Show but clearly no one took them up on their offer. When Essex Boatyards were involved the SQ65 was one of their top sellers but at that time (last year) they were £500-£600K cheaper than they are now - Hence the reason no 65 at the boat show!

Fairline always had large boats at Southampton even in the deepest part of the recession.

 

[rafiki_]

I get the impression that they are building for stock - large, brand new boats with for sale signs on them in Swanwick. In the motor industry, when the going gets tough, strikes are often "engineered" to stop the production lines whilst stocks are run down, and the workers are not paid.

You are going back 30 years. When was the last strike in the motor industry in the UK?

 

[admillington]

Princess know how to charge:-

http://www.boats.co.uk/boats-for-sale/princess-60-flybridge-1284

closing on £1.6 million for a Princess 60

James Barke, I believe to be one of the best boat salesman I have ever met never gives up. I have had 5 new boats off Essex Boatyards so I am on his target list. He is sending the above boat to Lymington next week for me and a number of other punters to go and try on our own without anyone from boats.co.uk. Will be very interested to try the vector fins in action.

 

[aquapower]

I know that Fairline are now building to customer orders and deposits so there is no stock around - there are quite a few "ex - demonstrators" large Princesses on the PMYS website so maybe the dealers don't want to buy more stock.

Why would they keep building for stock when word in the forum is that you buy a stock boat and expect at least 20% off? They are building boats to make profit after all, how long can this keep going before they go bust?

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Why would they keep building for stock when word in the forum is that you buy a stock boat and expect at least 20% off? They are building boats to make profit after all, how long can this keep going before they go bust?

I would think that 20% comes out of the dealer margin, not the factory margin, so the boat builder's profitability wouldn't be affected. However it can't be healthy for the industry if the dealer only makes a couple of % on a sale because then he can't afford a proper after sales service. FWIW I think all the main builders have jacked up their list prices considerably in the last few years because of the kind of customers they now have. The average Russian, Chinese or Arab customer expects a big discount on everything, whatever the price, so in order to maintain the builder's profitability and a small margin for the dealer, list prices have had to go up. That of course and a weak Sterling in recent years which has allowed Brit builders to jack up their prices

 

[admillington]

Why would they keep building for stock when word in the forum is that you buy a stock boat and expect at least 20% off? They are building boats to make profit after all, how long can this keep going before they go bust?

None of the deals I have been offered have got anywhere near 20% - and I agree with Deleted User that prices have been jacked up.

 

[Lozzer]

If you are buying a stock boat then getting 20% is a fair discount depending on the model. Smaller boats will attract less discount as there is less money in the pot to cover warranty issues. Cost for sending engineer to a 43' yacht is same as 90' yacht.

There should also be room for negotiation on stock boats as these may have been forwarded ordered and paid for by as much as a year by the seller.

New prices are jacked up but looking at the resale market there seems some deals out there. Just skippered a Riva 52 the owner bought it for a pennies in comparison to its original cost.

 

[47GC]

20% discount might be nice, but all this does is reduce the aftercare & depreciates the value of the product IMHO. I'd rather pay a bit more and know that BCU / Princess are going to look after me. Be interesting to see what percentage price increase is applied next year by the British boat builders.

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

I would think that 20% comes out of the dealer margin, not the factory margin, so the boat builder's profitability wouldn't be affected. However it can't be healthy for the industry if the dealer only makes a couple of % on a sale because then he can't afford a proper after sales service. FWIW I think all the main builders have jacked up their list prices considerably in the last few years because of the kind of customers they now have. The average Russian, Chinese or Arab customer expects a big discount on everything, whatever the price, so in order to maintain the builder's profitability and a small margin for the dealer, list prices have had to go up. That of course and a weak Sterling in recent years which has allowed Brit builders to jack up their prices

Very spot on. When the V39 was launched 3 years ago she was priced at £UK250k VAT not included. Now with the current EURO-£ this boat costs 500k EUROS including VAT.
Which is more or less what a V48 was offered in Cannes in 2013 to a friend of myn.
Anyways that is margin of 80%, I do not know if boating expanded so much in the last 2 - 3 years because AFAIK it did not.

 

[henryf]

Very spot on. When the V39 was launched 3 years ago she was priced at £UK250k VAT not included. Now with the current EURO-£ this boat costs 500k EUROS including VAT.
.........Anyways that is margin of 80%

Not sure I follow your logic there.

£250k plus vat 3 years ago

€500k inc vat. So take off the €83.3k vat = €416.7 ex Vat. £1 = €1.37 as I type so £304k plus Vat. A little over 20% increase.

Now I'm not suggesting there haven't been significant price increases because there have and I think they were engineered to take advantage of emerging markets and to allow a bit of wriggle room. It's worked because people are posting words of concern that a 20% discount might lead to the collapse of the manufacturer. I suspect gross margins are a little more rosy than that.

There is however some truth in saying that if a brand under sells its self there isn't enough money to re-develop the line up and they start losing ground in the market place. I think Fairline might have been guilty of that. It a viscous circle, your boats look a bit dated so you discount them then there isn't enough money to develop new models.

Princess have a very busy line up covering a quite small niche. 6 flybridge boats between 52 and 72 feet. 52, 56, 60, 64, 68, 72 and possibly a 48 coming. 7 sports boats from 48 -72 feet. That's a lot of development to be going on with. Would it make sense to shrink the range and enjoy better scale of economy? Who knows? They are obviously far cleverer than me at their game !

A though must go to the general economy over the past few years. People, myself included, will remember deals that were thrown around during the recession when the world was coming to an end. 2009 and 2010 were probably survival years where builders just wanted to keep the factory open. They would take cost price if it bought them time without losing money. I can remember being a handshake away from an amazing deal on a P50 which, as it happens was bettered by another handshake elsewhere on the stand as we talked. But that was then, today the world is in a much better place.

Some markets have to buy buy stock boats because their customers want to do a deal and get straight onboard. If things turn sour in an area and the local dealer decides they can't take the boats any more they will often end up in Swanwick due to its central location for shipping and the fact it has traditionally handled most of the factory output even if just to get it on a ship. All the boat show product goes there (3 times a year) and the nature of build slots means they must be secured a long time in advance. If you haven't got any bullets in the gun you aren't going to shoot people. Anyone can take orders, someone with a bit of clout can dominate the market by having build slots ready and waiting. Occasionally it means an unsold boat lands on your doorstep but decent margins mean no loss of life just not as profitable as some of the built to order craft.

Are Princess struggling? No, I don't think they are. There are far worse off manufacturers out there.

Henry

 

[jrudge]

I don't think they are strugling either. Thing is boat manufacture is a cyclical capital intensive business with generally poor margins so at any time you can make a case for doom.

A business I would like to be in. No. To stressful !

They all build nice boats. They are all still in business ( today anyway). They are all selling boats ( brand new targa 62 next to me in Cala Dor and a brand new s72 one over).

Oh an there are lots of really daft people who buy thee depreciating gas guzzlers. Oh. That would be us. But we enjoy it !