Maybe in need of a new rudder ... any guesses as to possible cost?

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NealB

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Yes, I know, very similar to the well known piece of string problem.

A boat I rather like has several small cracks around the lower pintle fitting, with rusty water seeping out.

Presumably, this could well indicate potentially serious issues if the stainless frame inside is damaged.

The rudder is about 1.5 metres deep, and 0.6 metres at the top (tapering towards the lower edge).

I wonder if anyone would like to have a very rough stab at how much I should budget for removal, splitting and repair?

Of course, it would depend on what was found once it is split, but a ball park figure would be useful eg £1000? £2000 £5000? More?

I've made a couple of enquiries at local yards, but they are understandably reticent without further investigation.
 
If you want to be totally safe, then a new rudder is the way to go.

I had a similar issue a few years ago & did replace the blade. I had rusty water seeping from the bottom of the nearly 40 year old rudder. I'd left the rudder leaking into a tray in the conservatory all of the previous winter with small holes drilled in the bottom. It never stopper leaking.

My worry was that if the tangs inside the rudder were corroded, then I could easily loose the rudder. So, I looked at getting the rudder split but it was cheaper to have the blade scrapped & a new one laminated. Cost was a few £100. The metalwork was fine & was re-used otherwise the cost would have been just under £1k. The reality was that it didn't need doing as the metal work was fine & there was just limited water ingress - you have to expect something after nearly 40 years.

I'd guess $1-2k to replace yours. But it is just a guess.
 
A few years ago a friends Westerly Longbow went off her mooring and came ashore, the rudder was split with about 12" offr the bottom, I offered to rebuild it as a winter project. The materials used, closed cell foam sheet, epoxy resin and chopped strand matt (must be powder bound for epoxy) woven grp, various fillers and thickening agents, thinners etc. came to about £130. Today the resin should be cheaper but I doubt it, allow £150- £200 but I had nearly enough left to do a second one. In this case the shaft and tangs were straight and the welds looked okay. As for time spent, I worked at it as and when, I spent longer because on the original the tangs just sat in the foam but in the rebuild I incorporated grp internal fins to connect them to the outside skins by carving away the foam. Once I had a good aerofoil in the foam core (built up from 12mm layers, worth taking a lot of care with the shape and symetry) I laid it up, alternating one side at a time lying flat on a bench, probably finished with a layup a bit thicker than the original. The surfaces came out quite fair so I did not have to do as much filling and fairing as I had expected. I had intended to use flow coat on the surface but as I had some epoxy primer to spare so I used a few coats of that under the antifouling. Forgot to say, make plenty of templates from the original rudder before you split it.
The most difficult thing I had done before that in grp was making skinny fuel tanks for off road conversions of motor bikes back in my youth but the products available today are much better and easier to work with
Quite a satisfying DIY job, a professional would do it much faster but I suspect you would be charged for close to a weeks labour.
 
I take it from your enquiry that you're not intending to DIY? Obviously the more you can do yourself the cheaper it would be. Over the years many horror stories have been revealed when rudders have failed. Often the rudder was used as a traing job for apprentices and insufficient thought was given to the strength required and the longevity which could be expected of it. Therein lies the problem of giving the repair job to a yard - they may just patch it up rather than improve on the original design and construction. You don't say what boat it is or what type of rudder, it may be that someone here has direct xperience rather than an old duffer like me talking generalities.

Iwas helping a friend on launch day when we noticed the tiller was not aligned with the rudder - sudden change of plans! Being a skeg hung rudder, we lifted the boat in the slings, dropped the rudder assembly and popped the boat back in the cradle. A few lucky guesses had us drill and cut around the attachment points for the webs, whose welds had fractured. The blade was largely full of the contents of the builder's watepaper bin so we dug out all the rubbish and took the whole thing to a yard where a group of volunteers serviced an RAF fast patrol boat - they had stainless welding capability. They welded the tangs back onto the stock and added gussets to strengthen the assembly. We glassed around the tangs and then filled the remaining void with expanding foam and glassed back over the holes we'd made for access. The foam was less than ideal, but by far the quickest way to fill it. The boat was launched only two days late and the rudder was still OK more than ten years later.

Another option would be to remove the assembly and take it to Tony McKillican who will make you a brand new wooden blade - call him, he may be able to quote straight off if he's done that model before.
www.tonymackillican.co.uk

If your yard are going to do the job for you, I'd advise that you agree stages at which you inspect the job and any options can be discussed before the next stage of work commences.

Rob.
 
rob2 said:
I take it from your enquiry that you're not intending to DIY? Obviously the more you can do yourself the cheaper it would be. Over the years many horror stories have been revealed when rudders have failed. Often the rudder was used as a traing job for apprentices and insufficient thought was given to the strength required and the longevity which could be expected of it. Therein lies the problem of giving the repair job to a yard - they may just patch it up rather than improve on the original design and construction. You don't say what boat it is or what type of rudder, it may be that someone here has direct xperience rather than an old duffer like me talking generalities.

Iwas helping a friend on launch day when we noticed the tiller was not aligned with the rudder - sudden change of plans! Being a skeg hung rudder, we lifted the boat in the slings, dropped the rudder assembly and popped the boat back in the cradle. A few lucky guesses had us drill and cut around the attachment points for the webs, whose welds had fractured. The blade was largely full of the contents of the builder's watepaper bin so we dug out all the rubbish and took the whole thing to a yard where a group of volunteers serviced an RAF fast patrol boat - they had stainless welding capability. They welded the tangs back onto the stock and added gussets to strengthen the assembly. We glassed around the tangs and then filled the remaining void with expanding foam and glassed back over the holes we'd made for access. The foam was less than ideal, but by far the quickest way to fill it. The boat was launched only two days late and the rudder was still OK more than ten years later.

Another option would be to remove the assembly and take it to Tony McKillican who will make you a brand new wooden blade - call him, he may be able to quote straight off if he's done that model before.
www.tonymackillican.co.uk

If your yard are going to do the job for you, I'd advise that you agree stages at which you inspect the job and any options can be discussed before the next stage of work commences.

Rob.
Click to expand...

More great advice there, thanks.
 
dom said:
£1000 should do it but take a look here: http://www.jefa.com/rudder.htm

Click on "products", and then on "rudder blades".
Click to expand...

The rudder and steering system on our Finngulf were Jefa and I can report that they are a great company to deal with. Great website too with clear technical explanations and real prices against stuff. Part of our boat purchase deal involved use as the Scottish demonstrator and when sailmaker Chris Owen was assessing the boats racing performance for a potential owner he concluded that the rudder aerofoil would have been more powerful if it was thicker. We decided that fattening it up was too much hassle but the racing owner had a fin added near the top (like you see on some aircraft wings) which was intended to increase power, I copied it on ours and I think it did delay the point of broaching slightly.
 
Having just had one made for my 30 y/o yacht - this sounds like deja-vu!

My cost was in the region of £3000 to have it completely remade in grp (was wood) using the original tube and fittings and then internally improved.
It looks and feels incredibly tough and I have great confidence that it will outlast me and the boat!

blogger-image--196952504.jpg


Details on the blog.
 
Just going through the same process on my Sabre 27. Noticed it leaking some brown coloured water out of the bottom of where the shaft come out of the glass. Marcon when building a number Sabres decided in their infinite wisdom to weld mild steel tangs on to the stainless shaft! Spoke to my friendly boatyard, after fretting about four digit quotes, and was chuffed when they came back, yep no probs we do loads of rudders all with similar issues. Should come in at less than £500 inc. lift to remove, split, dry, weld, foam fill, glass, VC tar, lift, refit. We'll see how it goes!;)
 
Quandary said:
The rudder and steering system on our Finngulf were Jefa and I can report that they are a great company to deal with. Great website too with clear technical explanations and real prices against stuff. Part of our boat purchase deal involved use as the Scottish demonstrator and when sailmaker Chris Owen was assessing the boats racing performance for a potential owner he concluded that the rudder aerofoil would have been more powerful if it was thicker. We decided that fattening it up was too much hassle but the racing owner had a fin added near the top (like you see on some aircraft wings) which was intended to increase power, I copied it on ours and I think it did delay the point of broaching slightly.
Click to expand...

Ah a rudder with the now ubiquitous "sharklet" wingtips: you know they are supposed to decrease an airliner's fuel burn by 3-5%; e.g. 4% is quoted for the new A320neo.

Great idea to innovate like that; now all you need to do is add a foiling aspect to your tips and you'll increase your cruising speed to c.30kts :cool:

Incidentally, fully agree about Jefa.
 
SiteSurfer said:
Having just had one made for my 30 y/o yacht - this sounds like deja-vu!

My cost was in the region of £3000 to have it completely remade in grp (was wood) using the original tube and fittings and then internally improved.
It looks and feels incredibly tough and I have great confidence that it will outlast me and the boat!

blogger-image--196952504.jpg


Details on the blog.
Click to expand...

Now that's quite similar at first sight. I'm off to your blog to find out more.

Edit: different sizes, but still a very useful bit of information. Maybe I need to double your figure .... ouch!

Thank you.
 
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Jefa's asking price for my rudder is 3768 EUR + 25% Danish VAT + shipping. That's a spade rudder for a 40 ft Bavaria, 64mm AISI 630 stock, not including bearings. Jefa makes all steering parts on Bavarias after they fired JP3 for being rubbish. They did a fine job incl. expedited shipping for my new bottom bearing (I've not replaced the rudder... yet).

This is how it's made: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqBXDuI5NzY

Given that price, it's probably cheaper to split and rebuild the thing, unless you're in a hurry or already found a supplier that'll make you a new matching rudder for a good price.
 
Hanse 31 ft. last year new Jefa rudder, 3 weeks delivery but new bearings delivered in 7 days so it could be prepared

Blade & stock was eu3500-00.
Bearings about eu200 ( forget exact cost of bearings)

Total cost complete inc labour fitting, storage of boat 4 weeks , lift & launch ,trip to & from home in essex to Inverness £ 5500-00 all paid & settled in a couple of weeks by GJW ,less £ 250-00 excess & that included an insurance surveyor to do a structural check on keel ( It was due to a grounding) when boat lifted at end of season in Bradwell
 
had mine done for £300 timber with grp wrap, i stripped the old grp off, let the mahogany blade dry for 3 months, pintles exposed and checked, refilled and wrapped.photos available.
 
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