CLB
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the full details. I understand a bit better now why a prosecution followed. My memory of numbers on board was obviously wrong.
Max number of people on board ?
- Thread starter Andrew M
- Start date
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Expect you have not seen it because MOBOs in general fall clearly into one category or another and changes in weight do not have the same influence. The dividing line between A and B in the 30-35' sailboat is fine and clearly builders desire to get into the higher category with boats (like mine) that have the physical space to carry more people than is possible to meet the requirements.
Suspect it is far less critical from a marketing point of view with similar size MOBOs as they tend to be Cat B anyway.
CLB
Well-Known Member
I've seen it in quite a few small mobos.
Alpha22
Well-Known Member
I remember reading the MAIB report... there was a large amount of booze involved too... I vaguely remember the low cut transom, to accommodate the outboard being the root of the problem. The freeboard is very small in that area and the overloading was causing water to come over the transom even before the turn creating an unstable vessel...........
Whitelighter
Well-Known Member
I can't see 24 tonnes of ferretti being bothered by a couple of extra bods - even if they were 100kg each.
There is not limit to what tender I can have (weighs 220kg) , what I can store on my FB etc. Fuel makes a huge difference between full and nearly empty (close to 2T difference). 12 people 960kg ish, 14 1120kg ish - even if we all stood down one side I doubt you'd notice
There is not limit to what tender I can have (weighs 220kg) , what I can store on my FB etc. Fuel makes a huge difference between full and nearly empty (close to 2T difference). 12 people 960kg ish, 14 1120kg ish - even if we all stood down one side I doubt you'd notice
superheat6k
Well-Known Member
Vessel stability is not a subject covered on here very much, but what happens when you add loads of 10 - 12 stone adults is that all their weight is generally positioned well above the centre of buoyancy, and the result is that the centre of gravity of the vessel, which must be below the centre of buoyancy, moves upwards.
If The CoG is close to or even worse above the CoB then the boat will turn over remarkably easily. e.g. a 32' boat with say 15 people who all move to one side to watch the fireworks at a regatta suddenly becomes dangerously unstable, a small tender passes by and its minute bow wave makes the thing suddenly capsize.
If The CoG is close to or even worse above the CoB then the boat will turn over remarkably easily. e.g. a 32' boat with say 15 people who all move to one side to watch the fireworks at a regatta suddenly becomes dangerously unstable, a small tender passes by and its minute bow wave makes the thing suddenly capsize.
sharpness
Well-Known Member
I know I've posted this video clip before (see link below), but it sums this topic up perfectly.
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...15-people-Near-disaster-(vid-clip)&highlight=
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...15-people-Near-disaster-(vid-clip)&highlight=
Greg2
Well-Known Member
Involuntary manslaughter would be the most likely charge, in this case gross negligence manslaughter based upon the duty of care placed upon the skipper of a vessel. There is another element to manslaughter based upon an unlawful act but this is probably less likely in the circumstances.
I sometime think that many (some) leisure skippers don't always fully appreciate the responsibilities they have when taking a boat to sea, or indeed out on the river.
Baseplate
Active Member
Errm-yep, I think that you would notice.
As superheat6k alludes to, such movement (given your example) of just plus or minus 1 x tonne will affect the boat's CoB. Both CoG and CoB move laterally, with (mostly) CoG rising slightly and CoB falling. Increase that rate of movement through speed at a turn and everything gets very exciting very quickly.
Cheery
Well-Known Member
I have been on a tourist boat in Greece which came across a pair of turtles mating. Everyone was on the top deck as it was late May and sunny. As soon as the turtles were seen everyone rushed to the starboard side to see them. Everyone except me and mine. I don't mind saying I was very scared as it was obvious it was not very stable. Quite how it didn't capsize I'll never know.
Andrew M
Well-Known Member
Thanks everyone so far, some great and thought provoking comments, . Now, unless I've missed it, not read properly or misunderstood, I think there isn't yet a definitive answer here on this ? Apologies if anyone has posted up with a rock solid "this is the absolute, final position on this" type of answer, my mistake.
I'm getting the clear impression that 12 is a significant number in boating terms, but that an overriding factor is what the boat design is considered capable of carrying safely which means to me that the CE plate information is decisive. It appears varying from any manufacturer or classification recommendation would make the skipper either negligent or wholly responsible should anything happen ?
I think I'll call the manufacturer and maybe either the RNLI or RYA and will report back with their positions on this.
That video of the flybridge almost going over is scary.
Thanks for all the info so far.
Andy
Thanks
I'm getting the clear impression that 12 is a significant number in boating terms, but that an overriding factor is what the boat design is considered capable of carrying safely which means to me that the CE plate information is decisive. It appears varying from any manufacturer or classification recommendation would make the skipper either negligent or wholly responsible should anything happen ?
I think I'll call the manufacturer and maybe either the RNLI or RYA and will report back with their positions on this.
That video of the flybridge almost going over is scary.
Thanks for all the info so far.
Andy
Thanks
Cheery
Well-Known Member
Andrew M
Well-Known Member
Well I can see 16 on that for starters.
Ok, I've spoken to the MCA, their advice was that if the boat's not coded (that's run out and I can't see me replacing it) and if the people on board are "friends and family" (there's a definite distinction between this and "passengers" who are fees paying people), and if I'm not using the boat for any commercial type of use (ie, not recovering more than fuel/running costs) then there is not an actual limit on guests on board subject to the fact that it is my responsibility as skipper to ensure the vessel is seaworthy and safe to use, that there is adequate safety equipment on board for all persons etc.
Interesting and I'm also going to see if the RYA and RNLI have lines on this.
Ok, I've spoken to the MCA, their advice was that if the boat's not coded (that's run out and I can't see me replacing it) and if the people on board are "friends and family" (there's a definite distinction between this and "passengers" who are fees paying people), and if I'm not using the boat for any commercial type of use (ie, not recovering more than fuel/running costs) then there is not an actual limit on guests on board subject to the fact that it is my responsibility as skipper to ensure the vessel is seaworthy and safe to use, that there is adequate safety equipment on board for all persons etc.
Interesting and I'm also going to see if the RYA and RNLI have lines on this.
Baseplate
Active Member
This backs up your argument.
No, it doesn't.
Move them all to either port or starboard and stir in a few knots of motion. Make a turn-even a gentle one-and I'd be interested to see the effect.
PeterBoater
Well-Known Member
The definitive document is: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/460848/MGN_538.pdf , paragraph 1.3 gives a maximum of 12 passengers; I can't recall where I saw it but I believe that for the size/type of boats we are talking about, 'crew' is generally taken to be a maximum of the master plus one crewmember, making 12+2 in total.
On RCD numbers, it is a pity that most (but not all, it seems) boat builders only specify one sea category, presumably on grounds of cost for extra stability tests/calculations. It would be useful to know that, for example, 8 persons in Cat B also means 10 in Cat C.
Whether the RCD limit is legally enforceable has, I think, never been tested in court but it is fairly safe to assume that in the event of an accident/incident, the MCA and the insurers wouldn't fail to take it into account
On RCD numbers, it is a pity that most (but not all, it seems) boat builders only specify one sea category, presumably on grounds of cost for extra stability tests/calculations. It would be useful to know that, for example, 8 persons in Cat B also means 10 in Cat C.
Whether the RCD limit is legally enforceable has, I think, never been tested in court but it is fairly safe to assume that in the event of an accident/incident, the MCA and the insurers wouldn't fail to take it into account
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Andrew M
Well-Known Member
Brilliant, thanks, I'll print and read all of that, that's the 1st bit of instructive legislation I've seen on the subject, generally backs up most of what I was told earlier with the exception/clarification of a vessel changing status once above the 12 non fee paying passengers.
RYA are getting back to me on this so will see if they add anything pertinent.
Thanks.
Andy
RYA are getting back to me on this so will see if they add anything pertinent.
Thanks.
Andy
jfm
Well-Known Member
Andy
I've only just seen this thread. You've touched on a very complex topic, and one I've had to think about carefully because I run an 80 foot private non charter boat that is CE plated for 20 people and can easily fit that many people for day cruising and I get plenty of requests from friends for >12 passengers.
Sorry this will be a long post - you need to blame the legislators for making this so complex
Excuse the bluntness, but a very large part of what is written above is just incorrect. Just as a couple of examples, the "12+2" is fantasy, and MGN 538 neither "definitive" nor "legislation" because it is not law. The reference to mgn280 is merely half of that story: if you want to code a boat you have a free choice in UK to code to mgn 280 or yellow book (and fwiw I cannot for life of me see why someone would choose the more awkward mgn280).
When seeking advice from MCA, RNLI and RYA, remember the second 2 are giving merely an opinion that you can't rely on. Even if you are asking the MCA remember (a) under Uk law advice from a public body such as MCA may not be relied upon unless you ask your question in a particular format (the legal precedent is MFK Underwriting and then the Matrix v CIR case) and (b) this topic is so complex it is unlikely a front line question answerer at MCA will even know the answer (but i'd be delighted to be proved wrong there)
The legal analysis goes like this:
1. Mgn538, which isn't law, says that in UK law a private vessel (by which I mean not commercial, under the SI 1998/2771 definition) carrying >12 passengers is a "passenger ship". The basis for that assertion is that SOLAS says it, and SOLAS is sort of adoipted into UK law in the various shipping acts. However, SOLAS doesn't actually say that in clear terms. Solas grants an exception to passenger ship status if the vessel is in private use, but then elsewhere it says >12pax = passenger, so SOLAS itself contains an internal inconsistency. STCW, also incorporated into UK law on a similar footing to SOLAS, doesnt contain that inconsistency: it is clear under STCW that if the use is private then the boat isn't a passenger ship even if >12 pax
2. So you start from a position that the law is defective. That aint unusual, btw
3. you could just leave it at that and run the boat not as a passenger ship, even if >12 private guests, and you'd likely be fine
4. But let's say we want to be cautious, so let's cautiously assume the SOLAS inconsistency ends up in a decision by MCA to treat the boat as a passenger ship. (Remember MCA is a prosecuting authority in its own right, like the CPS; it doesn't need the CPS). Then what?
5. Well now you're into more complex law. First, virtually all the rules for passenger ships don't apply in the cases applicable to this forum ie boats with <80GRT and not on international voyages. The rules get tougher the bigger and more offshore-ish and international you go. The MOST that could apply to "our sort of boating" as I read the law (and I repeat, it is complex) is that you must have just 2 certificates: a safety certificate and a safety management certificate. I think you would get those easily enough from a surveyor assuming you ran a good vessel. So that's your worst case scenario, and it aint too bad
6. But that is pretty conservative imho. A more balanced view is to say that the vessel must be "coded" under the applicable code, which isn't mgn280 or yellow book or any of the commercial codes but is the slightly obscure "Passenger Yacht Code", which has been adopted by the red ensign group ie by the UK. This code contains all sorts of rules about watertight bulkheads and stuff, but NONE of its rules apply to a boat built from GRP not in commercial use.
7. My conclusion therefore is that for purely private use you can have 12+ passengers on a GRP UK flagged vessel in coastal cruising and still be compliant with UK law, subject to #8 and #9 below. I'm therefore disagreeing with you that there is a meaningful change in status once you exceed 12 pax
8. All of the above is subject to the general legal and tortious duties of seaworthiness, adequate safety equipment, not overloading, etc (NOT, in law, a nameless "duty of care" as people keep writing time and time agian, misunderstanding the meaning of that phrase in UK law). Those are all things you must apply your own judgment to but it's not hard and my personal view is you should (a) not exceed the CE plate number, (b) have enough LJs and lifeboats for those on board, and (c) generally keep the boat in decent nick and navigate it sensibly. In my own case I have enough LJs (20+) and I consider that the total plated capacity of the LRs and the tender (8+8+7 in my case) to be the relevant lifeboat number, for ordinary coastal day cruising with chums.
9. All of the above is ALSO subject to the UK regulations (ie, law) which are similar to what I write in 8 above except that on >13.7 <24m boats you must have LRs for everyone (ie not rely on the tender) if >3miles from the coast. Therefore when I have >16 folks (incl crew) on my boat I stay <3 miles from coast, but that is fine for day trips and local easy peazy cruising
I'd be interested to hear what MCA, RNLI and RYA actually say about this complex topic. I think you should have spiced up your question to specifically draw their attention to mgn538 where it says >12 = passenger ship even if no payment, just to make them work a bit harder
.
Sorry for such a long post
I've only just seen this thread. You've touched on a very complex topic, and one I've had to think about carefully because I run an 80 foot private non charter boat that is CE plated for 20 people and can easily fit that many people for day cruising and I get plenty of requests from friends for >12 passengers.
Sorry this will be a long post - you need to blame the legislators for making this so complex
Excuse the bluntness, but a very large part of what is written above is just incorrect. Just as a couple of examples, the "12+2" is fantasy, and MGN 538 neither "definitive" nor "legislation" because it is not law. The reference to mgn280 is merely half of that story: if you want to code a boat you have a free choice in UK to code to mgn 280 or yellow book (and fwiw I cannot for life of me see why someone would choose the more awkward mgn280).
When seeking advice from MCA, RNLI and RYA, remember the second 2 are giving merely an opinion that you can't rely on. Even if you are asking the MCA remember (a) under Uk law advice from a public body such as MCA may not be relied upon unless you ask your question in a particular format (the legal precedent is MFK Underwriting and then the Matrix v CIR case) and (b) this topic is so complex it is unlikely a front line question answerer at MCA will even know the answer (but i'd be delighted to be proved wrong there)
The legal analysis goes like this:
1. Mgn538, which isn't law, says that in UK law a private vessel (by which I mean not commercial, under the SI 1998/2771 definition) carrying >12 passengers is a "passenger ship". The basis for that assertion is that SOLAS says it, and SOLAS is sort of adoipted into UK law in the various shipping acts. However, SOLAS doesn't actually say that in clear terms. Solas grants an exception to passenger ship status if the vessel is in private use, but then elsewhere it says >12pax = passenger, so SOLAS itself contains an internal inconsistency. STCW, also incorporated into UK law on a similar footing to SOLAS, doesnt contain that inconsistency: it is clear under STCW that if the use is private then the boat isn't a passenger ship even if >12 pax
2. So you start from a position that the law is defective. That aint unusual, btw
3. you could just leave it at that and run the boat not as a passenger ship, even if >12 private guests, and you'd likely be fine
4. But let's say we want to be cautious, so let's cautiously assume the SOLAS inconsistency ends up in a decision by MCA to treat the boat as a passenger ship. (Remember MCA is a prosecuting authority in its own right, like the CPS; it doesn't need the CPS). Then what?
5. Well now you're into more complex law. First, virtually all the rules for passenger ships don't apply in the cases applicable to this forum ie boats with <80GRT and not on international voyages. The rules get tougher the bigger and more offshore-ish and international you go. The MOST that could apply to "our sort of boating" as I read the law (and I repeat, it is complex) is that you must have just 2 certificates: a safety certificate and a safety management certificate. I think you would get those easily enough from a surveyor assuming you ran a good vessel. So that's your worst case scenario, and it aint too bad
6. But that is pretty conservative imho. A more balanced view is to say that the vessel must be "coded" under the applicable code, which isn't mgn280 or yellow book or any of the commercial codes but is the slightly obscure "Passenger Yacht Code", which has been adopted by the red ensign group ie by the UK. This code contains all sorts of rules about watertight bulkheads and stuff, but NONE of its rules apply to a boat built from GRP not in commercial use.
7. My conclusion therefore is that for purely private use you can have 12+ passengers on a GRP UK flagged vessel in coastal cruising and still be compliant with UK law, subject to #8 and #9 below. I'm therefore disagreeing with you that there is a meaningful change in status once you exceed 12 pax
8. All of the above is subject to the general legal and tortious duties of seaworthiness, adequate safety equipment, not overloading, etc (NOT, in law, a nameless "duty of care" as people keep writing time and time agian, misunderstanding the meaning of that phrase in UK law). Those are all things you must apply your own judgment to but it's not hard and my personal view is you should (a) not exceed the CE plate number, (b) have enough LJs and lifeboats for those on board, and (c) generally keep the boat in decent nick and navigate it sensibly. In my own case I have enough LJs (20+) and I consider that the total plated capacity of the LRs and the tender (8+8+7 in my case) to be the relevant lifeboat number, for ordinary coastal day cruising with chums.
9. All of the above is ALSO subject to the UK regulations (ie, law) which are similar to what I write in 8 above except that on >13.7 <24m boats you must have LRs for everyone (ie not rely on the tender) if >3miles from the coast. Therefore when I have >16 folks (incl crew) on my boat I stay <3 miles from coast, but that is fine for day trips and local easy peazy cruising
I'd be interested to hear what MCA, RNLI and RYA actually say about this complex topic. I think you should have spiced up your question to specifically draw their attention to mgn538 where it says >12 = passenger ship even if no payment, just to make them work a bit harder
.Sorry for such a long post
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Andrew M
Well-Known Member
Thanks JFM, for the input, and no worries about the length of that, it makes for very interesting reading and I need to go through that a few times to grasp it, and to properly read and understand the articles mentioned by you and previously.
It does look to be a slightly ambiguous situation but then that's what prompted me to asking what any of us knew on it. At least in my situation, from what I've gathered so far on this, I'm unlikely to fall foul of any of the currents regs/interpretations. We're new to coastal cruising and am learning so much and this is something I wanted to get clear so we didn't make any silly errors, one that has instantly come to light is having enough life jackets to cover any possible total number of guests ! 4 more on order already, last year being our 1st on the Solent we only had small groups, max of 4 guests, which were covered by our current inventory. The lifeboat thing is something else I need to now consider capacity wise as I'm in the market for a new one and will need to choose what size to go for.
All good stuff on the learning curve.
It does look to be a slightly ambiguous situation but then that's what prompted me to asking what any of us knew on it. At least in my situation, from what I've gathered so far on this, I'm unlikely to fall foul of any of the currents regs/interpretations. We're new to coastal cruising and am learning so much and this is something I wanted to get clear so we didn't make any silly errors, one that has instantly come to light is having enough life jackets to cover any possible total number of guests ! 4 more on order already, last year being our 1st on the Solent we only had small groups, max of 4 guests, which were covered by our current inventory. The lifeboat thing is something else I need to now consider capacity wise as I'm in the market for a new one and will need to choose what size to go for.
All good stuff on the learning curve.
Stats007
Well-Known Member
Fo what it's worth I don't ever carry more than the number of passengers than I'm happy with being responsible for. On a small boat (< 7m) every extra passenger can make an obvious difference to the handling and stability of the boat. Whilst it may be CE marked for 8 based on weight I wouldn't ever carry more than 6 - it's too many to keep an eye on in such a small boat. I often see small RIBs on the Solent packed with people riding in the front as well as seated and often without lifejackets. Knowing how quickly the weather can turn I'm surprised more accidents don't occur.
