Masthead light - steaming or anchor (or both)?

Refueler said:
Rewriting the Rules are you ? Go read about Restricted waters and Traffic sep schemes etc.

Looks like we have another Hero's Headstone coming up ......

As I said - here we go ... Ships vs Yacht crap again ...
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I know the rules very well thank you.

You never mentioned ‘restricted waters’ but said ‘usually yachts are give way vessels.’ (Or words to that effect).

The reality is that even in the Channel there are only a few areas where the majority of ships aren’t ‘give way’ to a sailing vessel. Dover straights and other TSS are obviously places where sailing vessels ‘shall not impede’ etc.
 
Refueler said:
Where is a 300,000 ton tanker going to go when in Dover Straits ? What courses is he going to keep ? He's going to be following the shipping lane as he has no choice ....
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Well aship heading down the Dover Strait may haveothers along side & has to change course within the strait to miss the Varne yet is still in the lane.
One with deep draft heading north would run up the south side of the lane at the south end then cross over to the north side of the lane further up then back over to the south side opposite Calais.
So in a sense he would be "zig zagging" within the shipping lane. With ships overtaking him or overtaking some himself the turns might not be quite so gradual as one might expect.
But that is only for very deep draft & in most cases there is over 20 metres . I would expect them to go north of the Uk ..
 
Daydream believer said:
When one talks about large ships doing various passages I was under the impression that the larger ones avoided the Dover Strait & went round the North of the UK. is that correct?
I also understood that whilst the port of Tilbury claimed it could take such large ships it was often the case that they had discharged part of their cargo in Rotterdam first.
So the ship going through the DS may have large capacity it may not actually be full
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Who told you that about going north ?? Tilbury has no capacity at all for such ships anyway.

Dover Straits can take vessels over 300,000 tonne at a pinch but very few of those are left now ... most common now are Aframax size at 100,000 - 150,000 tonne.

Back in the 60's ... 70's ... 80's ... it was common for large VLCC's of 200.000 and over to lighten in Lyme Bay or Seine Bay .. quantity lightered off usually about 60,000 tonne. Then vessel would proceed to Europoort.
Later it was basically suspended and lightering was thing of the past ... ships of 200,000 and up carried on through Dover Straits to Europoort.

I would not want to even think about taking a 300,000 tonner through Pentland - it was bad enough on the 20,000 tonners !!
 
awol said:
Well, how about the Hong Kong DISPLACEMENT 253,104.7 long tons (257,166 tonnes; 283,477 US tons).?
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Class and type:G-class container ship
Tonnage:
Length:399.87 m (1,311.9 ft)
Beam:58.80 m (192.9 ft)
Draught:16.00 m (52.49 ft)
Depth:32.50 m (106.6 ft) (deck edge to keel)
Installed power:1 × MAN B&W 11G95ME-C (1 × 75,570 kW)
Propulsion:11-cylinder 83,656 hp Diesel engine

Two shafts, fixed pitch propellers
Capacity:21,413 TEU

OK ... now look at the draft .. (we'll ignore your overstated tonnage).
 
john_morris_uk said:
I know the rules very well thank you.

You never mentioned ‘restricted waters’ but said ‘usually yachts are give way vessels.’ (Or words to that effect).

The reality is that even in the Channel there are only a few areas where the majority of ships aren’t ‘give way’ to a sailing vessel. Dover straights and other TSS are obviously places where sailing vessels ‘shall not impede’ etc.
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If you are going to argue a post -make sure you quote it correctly ... note the bit I've underlined and made bold whch you seemed to have not read :

"The average yacht when only under sail is far more agile than any ship and in most cases - the yacht is actually the give way unless in deep / non traffic zone areas ... (couldn't be bothered to write out ColRegs text !).

I wrote in easy text instead of traipsing out ColRegs wording - thinking that people would understand it means yacht gives way in restricted waters ...
 
Refueler said:
Tilbury has no capacity at all for such ships anyway.
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When i was in Round table ( so that is over 43 years ago at least) a chap came from the PLA to talk about Tilbury docks.(& the history of the docks) the local papers had run an article on the dredging that had been carried out in the Thames & berthing at Shell haven ( or nearby) & how a ship of exceptionally large capacity had berthed as far up river as Tibury. ( i will not quote 250,000 tonnes again as it was a long time ago but i thought it was) the speaker said it was all B..x as the ship was half empty as it had partially emptied its load in the Netherlands.It was done as a publicity stunt more than anything.
He made the comment that it was not unknown for a couple of ships to actually touch bottom in the Thames
So yes i was told by the PLA that large ships could get to Tilbury (1)(y)
 
Daydream believer said:
Well aship heading down the Dover Strait may haveothers along side & has to change course within the strait to miss the Varne yet is still in the lane.
One with deep draft heading north would run up the south side of the lane at the south end then cross over to the north side of the lane further up then back over to the south side opposite Calais.
So in a sense he would be "zig zagging" within the shipping lane. With ships overtaking him or overtaking some himself the turns might not be quite so gradual as one might expect.
But that is only for very deep draft & in most cases there is over 20 metres . I would expect them to go north of the Uk ..
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Lets get rid of this Zig Zag rubbish for a start .... it implies haphazard manoeuvres which is certainly not the case. Second - the amount of overtaking ship on ship is actually minimal. Third ships know that other ships will be following the lane unless they have an idiot in command.
Why ?

Ships proceeding to / from Dover Straits will organise for passage of the Straits ...

1. Engine room will be manned
2. Bridge watch will be doubled / Master on Bridge with OOW assisting
3. Speed will be reduced from Full Away to Full Manoeuvring
4. Constant assessment of situation and adherence to Traffic Separation Scheme

> 1. This is so even though engine will be under Bridge Command - Engineers will be at hand in case of need.
> 2. To facilitate the frequent position fixing and radar watch as well as visual conn. One AB on wheel - other lookout.
> 3. Most vessels are built to similar speed specs - even many late build Passenger ships are similar now at 14 - 15Kts Full away and about 12Kts manoeuvring. Its only Container and Reefer ships that still often are faster due to Liner schedule.
> 4. Speaks for itself.

This means that majority of vessels will be literally proceeding in orderly stream, similar speed through the Straits and actually very little overtaking is needed. If needed - the overtaking vessel will assess early and decide the amount of alteration and whether its sensible before the expected turns of other vessel / his.

Its a great pity that many of you will never actually see the reality of taking a ship through Dover Straits - I am sure it would alter a lot of assumed and perceived views.
 
Large vessels have been known to berth up river such as Thames and Southampton ... but in seriously reduced draft condition. And in the case of Tilbury - I would like to see evidence of actual cargo on board. Such exercises were usually because Vessel would be laid up for a period. She would proceed upriver in what we termed Flying Trim (minimum ballast to have manoeuvrability and prop sufficiently immersed). The cost of a ship of size and passage in river / dues etc. - would make a publicity stunt EXTREMELY unlikely. There would have been a much better reason for it.
Best example of this : Southampton - Burmah Endeavour, which later sailed into the Iran - Iraq conflict under different name and flag. She could only get up to the dock once literally deballasted to minimum safe draft and external assistance. Traffic was seriously limited during the operation. She was laid-up there due to Burmah Oil ceasing to exist, second she had no work at her size, she could not pass through Suez and last but not least - she was up for sale. Only when Iran Iraq war started did she get a new role ......
I was with Stena, later Chevron and lightered to her (I was team member for crewing ships running the crude inside Gulf during Iran Iraq war ....)

Gulf Iran - Iraq Plaque.jpg



One of the most significant restrictions on large vessels into the Thames - is not the Thames itself, which once you reach Shellhaven is quite deep - but the approaches through the various channels that thread through the banks before you get anywhere near Shellhaven / Canvey. This is why Shellhaven never became a VLCC terminal. It could only accept medium sized or reduced draft vessels. (I was Shell Tankers UK Officer for 7 years).
 
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Refueler said:
2. Bridge watch will be doubled / Master on Bridge with OOW assisting
This means that majority of vessels will be literally proceeding in orderly stream, similar speed through the Straits and actually very little overtaking is needed.
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Overtaking takes place all the time. It is quite normal to see them side by side anywhere from the West Hinder to well south. A quick look on AIS online will show that
ie
Echo, doing 13 Kts has just overtaken Vega doing 8kts not far from Dover heading S
MSC Fabienne doing 21 kts heading N, south of eastbourne has just passed 3 ships
As for watch keeping Polarstream (about the size of a supply type vessel) missed me by about 75 metres & only changed course after a VHF call from me . She must have been under autopilot & kept changing course towards me. It was obvious no one was looking, because the turn, once I made contact, was quite pronounced. Not all vessels are super carriers. Lots are much smaller coaster types & I doubt that your assertions about crewing are correct for all vessels.
So I am sorry , I feel that your assertions are, possibly, a little off the mark in some cases
I have not crossed the channel as many as some, but I have logged circa 300 crossings & seen ships in that area.
 
Daydream believer said:
Overtaking takes place all the time. It is quite normal to see them side by side anywhere from the West Hinder to well south. A quick look on AIS online will show that
ie
Echo, doing 13 Kts has just overtaken Vega doing 8kts not far from Dover heading S
As for watch keeping Polarstream (about the size of a supply type vessel) missed me by about 75 metres & only changed course after a VHF call from me . She must have been under autopilot & kept changing course towards me. It was obvious no one was looking, because the turn, once I made contact, was quite pronounced. Not all vessels are super carriers. Lots are much smaller coaster types & I doubt that your assertions about crewing are correct for all vessels.
So I am sorry , I feel that your assertions are, possibly, a little off the mark in some cases
I have not crossed the channel as many as some, but I have logged circa 300 crossings & seen ships in that area.
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I was posting based on way back having focused by your and others on large vessels ... I have sailed small vessels and yes I agree with your assessment of small vessel - unfortunately some choose not to use the inshore traffic schemes laid for them ... because of destination usually.

But large vessels are so similar in their type and construction / specs - that I hold to my point.
 
Refueler said:
The average yacht when only under sail is far more agile than any ship and in most cases - the yacht is actually the give way....
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I was on my phone so it was slightly challenging to go back and quote exactly.

Perhaps what you should have written is, "That despite the fact that a yacht under sail is far more agile than any ship, in most cases, the ship is the give way vessel unless in TSS or restricted waters." which would have been more accurate and made more sense.
 
john_morris_uk said:
I was on my phone so it was slightly challenging to go back and quote exactly.

Perhaps what you should have written is, "That despite the fact that a yacht under sail is far more agile than any ship, in most cases, the ship is the give way vessel unless in TSS or restricted waters." which would have been more accurate and made more sense.
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My cup is half full ... my cup is half empty ..

Sorry - I cannot gaze into a crystal ball to see how you will read a simple sentence.
 
Daydream believer said:
That was a bit unfair. Surely we can have a strong debate without direct insults.
If you do not like the debate would it not be better to agree to disagree & call it quits rather refer to "crawling out"
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Wasn't directed at you ... I'm happy to debate with you ... because its a healthy debate that regardless of right or wrongs brings out info on both sides that can be useful.

But 'Rainbow' posted insults to provoke on another thread - and then posts here as I predicted.... I won the bet ... what I am I to do ignore ?? He wants to be silly - so can I ..
 
Ok .. lets look at this speed bit through such as Dover Straits ... and your info of 8kts and 13kts.

Just a bit of expl :

Full Away Sea speed : usually means wind her up chaps ... to max recc'd ... not best in congested waters if you need to manoeuvre
Full Ahead / Astern: Usually about 70 - 75% of full sea speed ... more controlled, engineers manning ER
Then we have Half Ahead / Astern ... Slow .. Dead Slow etc.

In the old days we also had on Steamers ... Double Ring Astern - because steamers usually gave about 60% astern at Full unless emergency ... the Double Ring.... then all hell broke loose down there as engineers wound open all the steam valves !!

(I have to relay this .. may give you a smile ... Motor ships use air start and each start uses substantial amounts of air ... so you often have two or more compressors running to top up between starts. The engines have no gearbox - so ahead is one way ... astern is other ...
It is not unknown in manoeuvres when Pilot / Master get a bit carried away with stop starts for ER to telephone bridge and complain ... the common phrase used being "You have two more f***** orders left and ones f***** stop !"

OK ... Small commercial craft like coasters etc. are usually quite slow with maybe up to about 10kts full away... with about 8kts at Full Ahead
Larger vessels except Reefers, Container and some Passenger vessels quicker with design speeds of around the 14kts mark... with Full Ahead about the 12kts.
Going slower than about 10kts on larger vessels starts to get uneconomic.
Reefers and Container vessels have tight schedules as Liner trade to keep and often 'push' the limits of speed ... as did the Gas ships I was on for a while ... 21kts was required to make run ...

So its not just a matter of seeing speed on AIS ... etc. - its worth delving further and checking out size and type of vessel. Vessels of similar type and size will usually go through such as Dover Straits at similar speed to avoid problems and also because they are on Standby status at Full Ahead ... not Full away ... about 12kts ... remember AIS takes speed from the GPS ... so its more than possible for 13kts to be shown. Of course there are going to be Schumachers of the world ... but generally luckily they are few and far between.
 
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