Massive hull blisters

[Steviecracknell]

I have an Arden 4, and I have just sanded the hull bare ready for painting. I decided to open up the 4 dinner plate size bulges on the capsulated keel today. I couldn't believe the amount of osmotic fluid that came out of the first one, about 50ml of the nasty stuff. The problem I have at the moment is the lead ingots that are bedded into the fibreglass keel have been exposed to allow the fluid to drain out, and I now wonder if the whole of the cement bedding material is saturated with fluid. If this is the case, what are my options. Do I dry out the exposed areas, patch with fibreglass and fill, or do I try to fully drain the rest of the encapsulated keel ( of which I assume is full of water ). It was built in 1964, and i hope to resurrect the old lady, called Arden Gipsy. Any ideas are very much appreciated.

Cheers Stevie.

 

[sarabande]

are you certain it is 'osmotic' fluid ? Vinegary smell ?

If it is lead embedded in cement, there may be other reactions taking place, depending on what went into the cement.

VicS is yer man for this.

 

[oldsaltoz]

Well one things for sure and that's "everything MUST be DRY before any repairs start.

So I suspect you have more grinding to do for a start.

Good luck.

PS it sounds more like a leaking keel that has started to de-laminate.

 

[Bilgediver]

I have an Arden 4, and I have just sanded the hull bare ready for painting. I decided to open up the 4 dinner plate size bulges on the capsulated keel today. I couldn't believe the amount of osmotic fluid that came out of the first one, about 50ml of the nasty stuff. The problem I have at the moment is the lead ingots that are bedded into the fibreglass keel have been exposed to allow the fluid to drain out, and I now wonder if the whole of the cement bedding material is saturated with fluid. If this is the case, what are my options. Do I dry out the exposed areas, patch with fibreglass and fill, or do I try to fully drain the rest of the encapsulated keel ( of which I assume is full of water ). It was built in 1964, and i hope to resurrect the old lady, called Arden Gipsy. Any ideas are very much appreciated.

Cheers Stevie.

I suspect as others say it may not be osmosis.Did the liquid smell of vinegar or somting else. You sem to be through to the inside where there is ater lying so maybe the source of this water should be investigated. It must come out even if it meands driling into the bottom of the keels to drain it.

Do you have access to the top of the lead from inside the boat?

 

[Steviecracknell]

Thank everyone for the comments. The blisters I have ground out were acidic, but it is also possible that there is salt water in there also. My next job will be drill a load of 10mm holes along the bottom of the keel, on Tuesday. Lets see what happens!!

 

[Jcorstorphine]

Why not talk to the builder.

Thank everyone for the comments. The blisters I have ground out were acidic, but it is also possible that there is salt water in there also. My next job will be drill a load of 10mm holes along the bottom of the keel, on Tuesday. Lets see what happens!!

You do not say where you are but if you are anywhere near the Strathclyde area, I would suggest you go and see George Hulley at Dumbarton. You will find the address and phone number at http://www.hulley-marine.co.uk/

George built the Arden 4s when he ran Arden Yachts in Helensburgh and is a very knowledgeable guy. He knows the boats quite literally "inside out".

The Arden 4 was a very well built hull as the orginal Ardens were built for Arden Yachts Charter fleet.

Regards

J. ex Arden 4 owner.

 

[Steviecracknell]

I have had the good fortune to have dealt with Mr Hulley on various occasions, and have found him an encyclopedia of knowledge. I will have to go see him again and quizz him on the reason why they gel coated the inside of the encapsulated keel.
As i mentioned in my last post, I opened up the blisters on the other side, of the keel, and was amazed at the amount of fluid I had unearthed, (was soaked by blisters opened under pressure). Once i had exposed all the blisters I was surprised to see that the inside of the keel were the cement is, has been gel coated, and this is where the hydrolic pressure has been at its worse.
Before i speak to George does anyone know of, or had any experience of this kind of lay up, is it standard, and why?
I have also drilled some extra 15mm holes in various places in the side of the keel, this has enabled me to flush out the inside with some fresh water, it seems to have worked, as the water left the cavity at a lower hole.

 

[oldsaltoz]

I suspect the keel has an internal gelcoat because it was made as a separate moulding, then later glassed to hull, the tacks gel coat helps when using a chopper gun to lay up the external side of the keel.

 

[Jcorstorphine]

Keel construction

I suspect the keel has an internal gelcoat because it was made as a separate moulding, then later glassed to hull, the tacks gel coat helps when using a chopper gun to lay up the external side of the keel.

I am not sure the keel was a separate item. Having looked at a number of these hulls over the years, they look to be a convetional lay up with the keel being part of the hull moulding.

John

 

[Jcorstorphine]

Gel coat

I have had the good fortune to have dealt with Mr Hulley on various occasions, and have found him an encyclopedia of knowledge. I will have to go see him again and quizz him on the reason why they gel coated the inside of the encapsulated keel.
As i mentioned in my last post, I opened up the blisters on the other side, of the keel, and was amazed at the amount of fluid I had unearthed, (was soaked by blisters opened under pressure). Once i had exposed all the blisters I was surprised to see that the inside of the keel were the cement is, has been gel coated, and this is where the hydrolic pressure has been at its worse.
Before i speak to George does anyone know of, or had any experience of this kind of lay up, is it standard, and why?
I have also drilled some extra 15mm holes in various places in the side of the keel, this has enabled me to flush out the inside with some fresh water, it seems to have worked, as the water left the cavity at a lower hole.

I think the gel coat on the inside may have been to protect the laminate from chemical attack from the cement.

One word of caution about pumping water into the voids is to be aware that some of the water may end up being trapped and then freezing if we have another cold spell. This could cause further damage.

John

 

[Steviecracknell]

The hull is moulded in two halves, and then stuck together with a centre seam, because of the tumblehome.
I have also taken moisture readings, using a sovereign meter, which have shown results ranging from 10% to 17% in various places. For a boat of this age and condition, i'm not that surprised.
Here is a picture of the swiss cheese.

 

[Jcorstorphine]

Repair options

The hull is moulded in two halves, and then stuck together with a centre seam, because of the tumblehome.
I have also taken moisture readings, using a sovereign meter, which have shown results ranging from 10% to 17% in various places. For a boat of this age and condition, i'm not that surprised.
Here is a picture of the swiss cheese.

You certainly have a bit of task ahead of you. I have jotted down a few thoughts which may help so hope you do not take offence.

Have you thought of drilling a hole in the lowest part of the keel to ensure all of the water drains out.

How you are going to dry out the cavity, perhaps some form of circulation of hot air using a hot air gun running on 110 volts to reduce the temperature. Might need to take a unit apart so you can run the fan at 230 volts to get the speed up. For this to work you would need to cut a hole in the sole of the interior and another one at the foot of the keel.

I was wondering how you are going to thicken up the two large circular area shown on DSC00496.jpg If you have ground away a significant thickness of the bulge, the remaining part will be quite thin near the hole. At the moment the surface looks to be flat to the rest of the keel but ideally you need a deep hollow in the middle with the thickness gradually tapering up to the sections of the keel which did not form part of the blister.

It might be worth cutting away a 2 to 3” hole in the centre of each area and then grinding back a long chamfer like a circular scarf joint. That way you will be filling up with successive circles of chopped mat until you get it fair with the undamaged parts of the keel. One thing you will have to do is get the water content down of the present lamination down to get a good bond.

With regards to the actual repair, I just wonder if you should use epoxy rather than polyester. May be a possibility to use epoxy as a bonding agent and them go back to polyester. Perhaps you should make a posting on PBO about the merits of using either Epoxy or Polyester etc. You will get to a wider range of owners with GRP boats there.

Other thought is to pump in expanding foam as some of these materials use water vapour to cure them.

I wish you all the best with your repair, in the meantime I will get back to my knackered engine with its cracked cylinder head (not frost damage) oval bores, worn rings and damaged pistons.

Happy New Year

John

Who said that boating had to be fun!

 

[oldsaltoz]

You certainly have a bit of task ahead of you.

One thing you will have to do is get the water content down of the present lamination down to get a good bond.

With regards to the actual repair, I just wonder if you should use epoxy rather than polyester. May be a possibility to use epoxy as a bonding agent and then go back to polyester.

Other thought is to pump in expanding foam as some of these materials use water vapour to cure them.

Happy New Year

John

Who said that boating had to be fun!

Epoxy resin will bond to almost anything, however not much will bond to epoxy, so starting with epoxy and finishing with a standard poly resin may well compromise the end result.

Also note expanding that is moisture cured is not 'closed cell' and will turn to a mush if it gets wwt after curing.

As a general rune, NEVER used CSM with epoxy, it has a lot of voids and will use a lot more resin (about 3 times as much) and you will end up with an overall weaker and more brittle repair.

The important factor in this repair is to ensure the keel is Dry before you add any resin.

Good luck.

 

[Steviecracknell]

Thanks gents for ur comments, I'll defo take them on board!!
Cheers Stevie.

 

[Raymie]

are you certain it is 'osmotic' fluid ? Vinegary smell ?

If it is lead embedded in cement, there may be other reactions taking place, depending on what went into the cement.

VicS is yer man for this.

It wasn't cement that was used in the bedding of the lead on the Arden, it was believe it or not wet sand that was used at the time. I spoke with Mr Hulley about it and he assures me of this, Strange choice of material but remember fibreglass hulls were a relatively unknown quantity in the 1960s and in its infancy as Mr Hulley said. Obviously any leakage of the cabin sole, or more likely from the bilge, would penetrate in to the sand to maintain moisture and in turn penetrate the porous inner gelcoat over the years resulting in these blisters. I agree that this may be delamination of the hull due to the moisture within the keel but there is still some osmotic fluid present too. I wonder how many Arden's are suffering from this?

R Cracknell

 

[Aja]

..... I wonder how many Arden's are suffering from this?

R Cracknell

... as there are still an awful lot of the brilliant little ships around after all this time, I would have thought it wasn't considered a problem against purchase!

Regards
Donald

 

[Raymie]

... as there are still an awful lot of the brilliant little ships around after all this time, I would have thought it wasn't considered a problem against purchase!

Regards
Donald

I think the real reason is that most folk probably dont bother with a survey with this value of yacht and are blissfully ignorant of whats going on deep within the keel (i dont think this is a one off problem). My brothers Arden has probably had this problem for decades under the many layers of antifouling (see pics), but rest assured this little ship (Arden Gipsy) will be restored meticulously over the coming months. Does anyone know of any early wooden Arden 4s that are still in existence?

Raymie.

 

[Swinranger]

Stevie,
You could use a vacuum pump to remove the moisture from the keel before repairing with epoxy. Fix the pump at the lowest point and leave it until no more moisture appears.
I've used this technique to remove nearly all the moisture from foam and balsa cored lay ups with some success.
You will have to prevent the water from getting in again of course!

 

[Steviecracknell]

Nigel, that sounds like a great idea, but if there is water still in the keel, where will it be collected under vacuum!!
I have 2 vacuum compressors which I use for laminating timber together, I am having difficulty understanding where the water will be collected, and if there are various holes penetrating the hull, this may prevent the vacuum from sealing and extracting. I'll give it a try to satisfy my curiosity.

Cheers Stevie

 

[Jcorstorphine]

I think the real reason is that most folk probably dont bother with a survey with this value of yacht and are blissfully ignorant of whats going on deep within the keel (i dont think this is a one off problem). My brothers Arden has probably had this problem for decades under the many layers of antifouling (see pics), but rest assured this little ship (Arden Gipsy) will be restored meticulously over the coming months. Does anyone know of any early wooden Arden 4s that are still in existence?

Raymie.

My old wooden Arden 4 (GUSTO) which I think was No 16 is still sailing up the West Coast by an guy who rescued it from a certain Youth Organisation who were leaving it to rot.