sailorman
Well-known member
BS 1088 or what ever the CE replacement is
marine ply?
- Thread starter chrishelen
- Start date
BS 1088 or what ever the CE replacement is
D
Deleted member 36384
Guest
A plywood that complies with BS1088. Travis Perkins state it is to BS1088 which is the standard for a marine grade plywood, so I do not think they are contravening any trade description. The WBS test for plywood is not that robust but a BS1088 compliant plywood should easily outperform the requirements for a WBP glue.
A friend who built a Wharram cat had a sample of BS1088 compliant ply stuck to the outside of the shed for the duration of the build and it was solid as a rock after many, many months of exposure to Scottish rain.
All the EU terms used for ply are here: -
http://www.tradewood.co.uk/media/a8eb56d38238402db2511b517bdf0301glossary of terms.pdf
fisherman
Well-known member
I got the usual 'exterior quality' ply in TP, for deck repairs and to be covered in GRP, I expected it to be BS1455 WBP, found a stencil on it saying 'not weatherproof'. It wasn't particularly cheap either, £36.60 for 18mm. Used it in the past and it's been very good. We'll see....I skinned my wheelhouse with it about 18 years ago and that's mostly fine (just trouble with an unsealed edge).
ffiill
Active member
I haven't seen good plywood for years.
Interestingly some of the best I have come across is that which went into post war utility wardrobes.
I still have some pieces from one which got left outside several winters and showed no signs of delamination.
Interestingly some of the best I have come across is that which went into post war utility wardrobes.
I still have some pieces from one which got left outside several winters and showed no signs of delamination.
prv
Well-known member
Various otherwise-reputable suppliers - from Dulux to Makita - make special crappy versions of their products for sale in B&Q. It doesn't particularly surprise me that International have done the same.
Pete
rogerball0
N/A
+1
Over the years both for work and my project i've tried quite a few suppliers along the south coast regarding marine plywood and can conclude there is little difference in the quality only the price.
Meyer timber in my experience supply the most 'inconsistent' marine ply whilst Bamptons supply good quality stuff at fairly reasonable prices. FWIW i wouldn't dream of using a builders merchants for marine ply.
To save on tears, i think nowadays if using ply on a boat you need to seriously consider coating with epoxy-based resin many times over before your final finish and or sheath in a light cloth.
Heres what £35 quids worth of 18mm WBP looks like after 18 months outside my boat hut; you could peel this like an onion, i have a sheet of stamped (BS1088:2003) marine ply inside - never been directly exposed to the elements -which has fallen apart through just the moisture in the air, makes you wonder really............
I understand from chatting to a wood-nerd friend of mine BS 1088 is slowly being superseded by an EN code.
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Graham_Wright
Well-known member
I actually took this up with Trading Standards some years ago. It went right up the chain to a national level but my complaint was not upheld.
D
Deleted member 36384
Guest
These guys sell Marine Ply that is also Lloyds Approved. I assume that lloyds approve the manufacturing process and quality of the finished product to ensure that it is compliant. http://www.timbmet.com/ImageLibrary/marine.pdf
They also sell Suprahecht and Hechthout brand plywoods which are lloyds approved and guaranteed for 10 and 20 years respectively. It would be interesting to get a link to the new EN standard. Note though that EN stands for European Normalisation and in some cases, the BS standard can be adopted by the European Committee of Standardisation (Comité Européen de Normalisation, CEN) as a whole i.e. the same! I doubt it in this case as it appears that the BS1088 can be have a wide range of interpretation.
woozy-UK
Member
this for me is a worrying read, seeing about the cheap de laminating stuff
i am going to get my intro 22 rudder remade. i want it made like the original was out of marine ply.
what type should i buy and where from? ideally in south east/kent area (dartford)
thanks
i am going to get my intro 22 rudder remade. i want it made like the original was out of marine ply.
what type should i buy and where from? ideally in south east/kent area (dartford)
thanks
fisherman
Well-known member
Seafish regs for fishing boat construction allow the use of WBP BS 1455 provided it is totally encapsulated in GRP, could you do this to your rudder? It's the norm on many boats.
AntarcticPilot
Well-known member
It will be being superseded by a BS-EN code. The system is that standards originated and defined by the BSI are BS, standards originating elsewhere by ISO or CEN are adopted by the BSI and prefixed with BS-EN. If an international standard isn't adopted by the BSI, it has no legal force in the UK (CEN standards are, however, adopted automatically). However, given that the BS-1088 standard exists, it is very likely that the EN standard is based on BS-1088; the international standards bodies usually incorporate national standards where a robust national standard already exists.
Apologies - I've done my time in the world of BSI/CEN/ISO committees, on a totally unrelated batch of standards! If you think the forums are good at nit-picking, you ain't seen anything
I have had marine plywood from our local builders' merchant (Ridgeons in Cambridge), and it is stamped BS-1088 and appears to be what it says on the can. I haven't found a void yet, and it shows no sign of delamination in my unheated and detached garage.
sailorman
Well-known member
Read #48
Strathglass
New member
Marine ply is available but not from your builders merchants, most of the stuff they sell is junk as far as marine use is concerned with loads of voids and poor adhesives. One place to be sure is Robbins timber in Bristol. They sell various grades of proper marine ply, all at a cost of course. But what they sell is well up to the task for marine use. For any critical marine application I would not look past them.
Up here in Scotland it is virtually but not totally impossible to purchase proper marine ply. It should be much easier on the south coast. Over 20 years ago I was able to purchase Israeli gaboon lightweight waterproof ply from a supplier down south, it was very good ply and could be left outside untreated without delaminating. But at that time I was buying it by the pallet so I had the advantage of scale. It is still possible to find good marine ply suppliers by diligent searching.
Recently I required a piece of all mahogany marine ply for a panel in a replacement external door I was making for a Colvic Victor. To save time and guarantee the quality I bit the bullet and ordered a quarter sheet from Robbins. Even then when the door was finished I impregnated the whole door with epoxy prior to varnishing it and fitting the hardware.
It is all very much a case of horses for courses.
Up here in Scotland it is virtually but not totally impossible to purchase proper marine ply. It should be much easier on the south coast. Over 20 years ago I was able to purchase Israeli gaboon lightweight waterproof ply from a supplier down south, it was very good ply and could be left outside untreated without delaminating. But at that time I was buying it by the pallet so I had the advantage of scale. It is still possible to find good marine ply suppliers by diligent searching.
Recently I required a piece of all mahogany marine ply for a panel in a replacement external door I was making for a Colvic Victor. To save time and guarantee the quality I bit the bullet and ordered a quarter sheet from Robbins. Even then when the door was finished I impregnated the whole door with epoxy prior to varnishing it and fitting the hardware.
It is all very much a case of horses for courses.
Lakesailor
New member
Or buy a plank of Iroko. Just as light and looks much nicer. I've done it on two small boats (Seahawk and Prelude) and enjoyed working with real wood.
I am just re-lining a 6' 6"x 4' car trailer and am getting some hardwood ply from a great timber man in Kendal. (Kendal Cut2Size....rubbish name, I know) He wanted me to buy Phenolic coated ply but at £50 that was too much for an old trailer. The ply he has is Malaysian 12mm hardwood for £32. He reckons it's the best he has been able to get for some time.
He did get some Chinese stuff which was nominally 18mm. When he unpacked the pallet and measured it, the sheets varied from 13mm to 23mm thick. He said if you stripped the top layer off the next and alternate layers looked like they had thrown bits of laminate waste on and poured a bit of glue around them.
He buys timber and kiln dries it himself. He has loads of hardwoods seasoning under cover indoors. He doesn't like Chinese wood.
rjp
Member
I admire your optimism but I had an experience with Robbins ply about the13 years ago which was not dissimilar to that of the OP. They did concede that I had received one or more faulty sheets with insufficient glue which were replaced foc. Pretty hard nosed at any mention of the Sale of Goods Act though. I haven't bought anything from them since.
AndrewB
Well-known member
Everyone is being very rude about cheaper, non-marine grade plywood but even that should not fail the way the OP's has.
For example, to save money I made my yacht dinghy of regular exterior grade plywood from Travis Perkins, and painted it with domestic gloss paint. After seven years of hard use it looked a bit battered but there was absolutely no delamination or structural failure in the ply. (Pictures at http://www.yachtsentinel.co.uk/Dinghy/dinghy.htm).
For Chrishelen's to fail in a week or so suggests the chippy used some old junk he had lying about, maybe even block-board. It sounds like he is a bit of a crook.
For example, to save money I made my yacht dinghy of regular exterior grade plywood from Travis Perkins, and painted it with domestic gloss paint. After seven years of hard use it looked a bit battered but there was absolutely no delamination or structural failure in the ply. (Pictures at http://www.yachtsentinel.co.uk/Dinghy/dinghy.htm).
For Chrishelen's to fail in a week or so suggests the chippy used some old junk he had lying about, maybe even block-board. It sounds like he is a bit of a crook.
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DownWest
Well-known member
The well know Dutch ply is now made by a French outfit called Charles.
I bought some quite good stuff from marineplyonline, survived my standard test of a dozen cycles in the dishwasher. But also had the same experience as the OP from some other stuff from a UK supplier.
The editer of WaterCraft is building (not very quickly..) a boat from birch ply (Russian?) that passed his tests. Quite cheap and, since it will be epoxy encapsulated, the non durability of birch is not so important.
I bought some quite good stuff from marineplyonline, survived my standard test of a dozen cycles in the dishwasher. But also had the same experience as the OP from some other stuff from a UK supplier.
The editer of WaterCraft is building (not very quickly..) a boat from birch ply (Russian?) that passed his tests. Quite cheap and, since it will be epoxy encapsulated, the non durability of birch is not so important.
chrishelen
N/A
Update...
Man from Jewsons is meeting my chippie at the boat tomorrow, I really hope I can get a satisfactory result out of this...I am out of the country for another 10 days so stuff is out of my hands and I feel a bit helpless, but let's see what the MFJ comes up with.
Man from Jewsons is meeting my chippie at the boat tomorrow, I really hope I can get a satisfactory result out of this...I am out of the country for another 10 days so stuff is out of my hands and I feel a bit helpless, but let's see what the MFJ comes up with.
chrishelen
N/A
Update...
Jewsons has passed this on to their suppliers, an outfit in Bristol,a very nice man rang me today to say its not their problem as it was the fault of the manufacturer in the far east and I should take it up with them, but as an act of good will the Bristol outfit will supply me with two sheets of marine ply 'proper stuff' he said.
Take it or !eave it it seems.
Jewsons has passed this on to their suppliers, an outfit in Bristol,a very nice man rang me today to say its not their problem as it was the fault of the manufacturer in the far east and I should take it up with them, but as an act of good will the Bristol outfit will supply me with two sheets of marine ply 'proper stuff' he said.
Take it or !eave it it seems.
prv
Well-known member
The law does not allow for passing the buck in this way. Your carpenter is responsible to you, jewsons are responsible to him, and the wholesaler are responsible to jewsons. In theory, you would sue the tradesman, he would recover his losses from Jewsons, and so on up the chain making lots of lawyers very happy.
Whatever you decide to do, an admission from the wholesaler that they supplied faulty goods sounds like a useful piece of ammunition to have. I hope it's in writing rather than a phone call?
Pete
