Marine Brokers- Caveat emptor

[DAKA]

Dishonest Marine Brokers- Caveat emptor

It should be noted that names have been changed and are not intended to reflect any current companies or individuals. Many of you will already know parts of this , apologies to any honourable Brokers reading this who feel tainted but I feel goaded into posting the full truth, it will perhaps go some way to explaining why I have such a mistrust towards Marine Brokers and will also go some way to explaining my apparent confusion between Broker/dealer .

Mr W puts his boat for sale through a South coast Broker, E any Yacht Brokers.

E any Yacht Brokers phone Mr W to advise him that his 4 year old boat has osmosis and repairs are going to cost £6000 but the good news is E any Yacht Brokers have found a buyer who wants to meet him to show him a part exchange boat which E any Yacht Broker values @ £XX XXX.

Mr D turns up to buy the boat with his friend Mr H, the deal is done and Mr W gets next to nothing in cash but gets a £XX XXX cruiser in part exchange which transpires to be worth less than 60% of E any Yacht Brokers valuation.

Mr D is actually a friend of E any Yacht Brokers, Mr H is also known to E any Yacht Brokers as he is not just a friend of Mr D but is actually his Business partner, D & H T/A DH any Marine .

DH any Marine don't spend £6000 on repairs , in fact the boat isn't even given a lick of antifoul.
DH any Marine sell the boat through S any Yacht Brokers, the Broker states that “the boat is in very good condition” and confirms when asked that “the boat does not have osmosis, the boat is only 4-5 years old and does not need a survey as it is still under warranty.”

Mr P buys the boat on the advice of the Broker, 2 days later Mr W returns from holiday to find messages left by Mr P and gets in touch to advise about the Osmosis and the part exchange deal done with Mr D , he is amazed to learn Mr D and Mr H are in partnership together as DH any Marine

A lift out and dry survey is arranged by C (Blakes Osmosis centre.)
The hull is completely covered with blisters the size of 10p's, in a 1 square foot area there will be 4-5 blisters all the size of a 10p, the whole hull is affected.
The Broker who sold the boat to Mr W is contacted who say the manufacturers confirm the boat is still in warranty but this isn't covered as the boats performance is not significantly affected by it.

Mr D has an interest in S any Yacht Brokers and possibly by Mr H and possibly DH any Marine, it was a little difficult to establish the full connections.

E any yacht Brokers are contacted by Mr P, it is very clear that Mr D and Mr H along with their company are well known by E any Yacht Brokers who said he was trying to help them out as a favour and are livid with Mr D for not repairing the boat as agreed before selling it on.

Mr D tries to deny everything .
Mr P takes legal advice and is not allowed to use his new boat.
Costs start to mount, Barristers are charging over £200 an hour.
Mr D offers to repair the boat ( basically a sand down and coppercoat)
Mr D eventually agrees to send a compensation cheque to Mr P
Mr P wins but somewhat an Pyrrhic victory
Alright Mr P ended up with a great deal but had to endure months of hassle,



All the legal remedies you are led to understand exist really aren't any real help at all unless you are stubborn, have spare capital that you are willing to gamble, have several hours a day spare time and are fit enough with huge energy to see it through to the end, it feels more like a gladiator dual than a legal redress, you have to sink right down to their level, that's an embarrassing and a shameful place for honourable men to find themselves in.

From the Brokers point of view they must have thought it was like taking dummies from babies, easy pickings except one 'mark' didn't want to bend over.

You must speak to the previous owners before buying a boat.
If the Broker doesn't want to give you the details then you ask for the service history looking for their details.
If you cant get to speak to the previous owner then walk away, its just not worth the risk.

The boat was sold several years later privately , it was made clear the boat had Osmosis and a written statement offered that if the new owner decided further treatment was required then 50% of the cost would be paid.
.

 

[gjgm]

Well, Mr W seems a bit of a plonker, if you ask me. Or just naive.
I wouldnt dream of accepting an interested party making a structural judgement and costing on my boat without corroboration from an independent specialist.
Neither would I take a part exchage on a boat based soley on an interested party valuation. I would certainly make my own assessment of the value of the part exchange.
After that, I got a little confused. Mr P then buys a/the boat that is covered in large blisters without noticing them or having a survey, based on "the boat is in very good condition" ?
I may not have got all of this correct, in which case I apologise.
While it appears as though there were some shenanigans, people really do have to take responsibility for their decisions. As I say, I may have misunderstood some of this, but some people seem to have been supremely naive.

 

[ari]

It reads a bit that way to me too (such as I can follow it).

Why did the original seller not make some enquiries as to what the boat he was taking in p/x might be worth?

And why did Mr. P not get a survey on what must have been an expensive purchase?

All the rest I can't really follow to be honest...

 

[DAKA]

Mr W employed a Broker to sell his boat and he trusted the Broker to act in his best interests .

The Broker selling his boat was an interested party but surely the interest was in favour of Mr W


Mr P bought the same boat from a Brokers and made the mistake of believing the Brokers advice.

The Broker stated the boat didnt need a survey as it was still under manufacturers warranty, the broker stated he had looked at it and it was a good boat and a survey would be a needless waste of money.

Mr P was indeed naive to place any trust in the Broker and should have been more buyer aware/beware, hence the tittle and point of the post .

With age comes much wisdom, there will be other first time buyers reading this and hopefully they will not fall into the same traps.

 

[jfm]

As others have said it's a bit hard to follow. Mr W seems a bit unwise. But whatever, this is no basis here for saying brokers are bad in general. While this tale was a bad episode, I can report two excellent episodes where brokers (PowertoSail, and Essex Boatyards) sold two boats for me on brokerage and did a totally excellent job with complete integrity and professionalism. It's just not fair to take an isolated unusual case and tar all with same brush and it undermines your credibility when you do so.

 

[DAKA]

Mr P then buys the boat that is covered in large blisters without noticing them

The blisters were below the water line, they were not visible until the boat was antifouled and out of the water.

 

[DAKA]

As others have said it's a bit hard to follow. Mr W seems a bit unwise. But whatever, this is no basis here for saying brokers are bad in general. While this tale was a bad episode, I can report two excellent episodes where brokers (PowertoSail, and Essex Boatyards) sold two boats for me on brokerage and did a totally excellent job with complete integrity and professionalism. It's just not fair to take an isolated unusual case and tar all with same brush and it undermines your credibility when you do so.

With exception to the last credibility remark, I accept your comments, I did actually apologise above to the honest brokers , I accept there are honest, good brokers.


I have posted the above summarized numerous times just to have it dismissed as not connected to Brokers, hence I posted the full details in order to explain the connection.

I dont believe I have actually said all brokers are bad.
all I have done is pointed out that it is the buyers duty to be aware, and certainly not the duty of the Broker to help a buyer.

Re looking at the post perhaps the title infers all brokers are bad, I am happy to change the title if anyone cares to suggest a more suitable one,
edit
I have just tried to change it but cant, if anyone's not happy with it perhaps you can ask a moderator to change, I have no objections to this.

 

[gjgm]

The blisters were below the water line, they were not visible until the boat was antifouled and out of the water.

Ok, but he bought a boat without having it lifted/surveyed, as I understand it.
If the boat was indeed just a few years old, I agree that osmosis would seem extremely unlikely, so maybe he accepted the risk.
BTW, osmosis as I undertsand it is a very specific deterioration on the grp layup due to an acidic reaction between water entering the lay up and the epoxy/chemicals. Its also very rare on modern grp, so it would be curious if there really was osmosis, as opposed to some other gelcoat fault, for example.

 

[DAKA]

If the boat was indeed just a few years old, I agree that osmosis would seem extremely unlikely, so maybe he accepted the risk.
BTW, osmosis as I undertsand it is a very specific deterioration on the grp layup due to an acidic reaction between water entering the lay up and the epoxy/chemicals. Its also very rare on modern grp, so it would be curious if there really was osmosis, as opposed to some other gelcoat fault, for example.

He didnt accept the risk, he was told it didnt have it and if it did get it then the manufacturers would repair it.

A Blakes osmosis centre and a marine surveyor identified the blisters as Osmosis, they also contained the tell tale vinegar smell solution.

Now just hear say ,

It would appear the Osmosis started between year 2-3

The boat was in warm shallow fresh water.

The boat most likely had osmosis when Mr W bought the boat from A any Yacht Brokers because he moved it to Salt water on the south coast.

A any Yacht Brokers also told Mr W exactly the same as S any Yacht Brokers had told Mr P

As the boat is nearly new and has a manufacturers warranty there is no need for a survey, I can however confirm that A any Yacht Brokers later told Mr P that the manufactures warranty did not cover this Osmosis.

Thats 4 out of 4 brokers that touched this boat that are not on my 'trust' list .

But accept there are other good honest brokers out there.

 

[ontheplane]

Goes on in the House sale business all the time....

"Oh nice elderly Mrs D - you have to go into a home... yes it is a shame, and of course no-one wants little 2 bed flats these days, but we'll do our best for you..."

"Oh Mrs D you are lucky - someone's just come in and offered £25,000 for your flat, of course it's not worth that, how lucky you are, Who is it? oh I don't know a local man, wants it for his son I think"

Two weeks later flat back on market done up by local builder at £100,000 and estate agents pocketed their £1000 fee plus a £3000 backhander by the builder who's bought at half the value.....

Always look for the conflict of interest....

 

[Tranona]

All you seem to have done, Pete is illustrate that there are dodgy people and gullible people - unsurprising in a population of 60m! Suggest you watch Sarah Beeny's programme on a Tuesday if you want to see gullible people - and dodgy people. Lots of them simply because there are more houses than boats.

 

[fireball]

All you seem to have done, Pete is illustrate that there are dodgy people and gullible people - unsurprising in a population of 60m!

Actually - If anyone buying a boat reads Pete's post perhaps they will think to question what a broker tells them - and realise who is paying the broker - hopefully it will help avoid people getting into situations like this in the future.

There are some very good brokers out there and some very dodgy ones ... I haven't found one who has lied to me yet and I rather hope I don't - but I won't ever rely solely on the brokers word no matter what ...

 

[DAKA]

Alright perhaps both Mr W and Mr P were gullible, both were very young 20ish.

To summarise for those who couldnt follow it

A young lad buys his first boat from a broker who tells him he doesnt need a survey as the boat is under warranty.

The boat has osmosis and he looses most of his investment.
He sells the boat through another broker who sells the boat cheap to the Brokers own mate who in turn is another Broker/dealer.

The boat is then sold again to another young lad through another broker who says exactly the same as the first one that the boat doesnt need a survey as it is covered under the manufacturers warranty.

At least 2 out of the three Brokers know the boat has osmosis.
At least 1 Broker knows the manufacturers warranty does not cover the Osmosis damage despite telling the buyer that it does.

Although this has been written without giving any names of companies I am disappointed that it is being dismissed as one off bad Brokers...........

I guarantee that 90-95% of this forum readers will be fully aware of one of the . any companies.
There will be many forum readers from the south coast will be aware of one of the other . any company who was involved.

As Fireball says, you need to be aware of the Brokers responsibilities (or lack of them) .

As the credit crunch bites I fear the temptation of previously respected Brokers to dodge moral dilemmas increases.

In my opinion the Broker who sold a clients boat to a mate without disclosing an interest acted dishonestly .

The brokers who lied to buyers acted dishonestly.

in my opinion regulation is required where the dishonest Brokers can be struck off which will give much needed confidence back to potential buyers and increase the number of boats being sold through the honest Brokers who deserve the business.



PowertoSail, and Essex Boatyards were NOT involved.