Mantus vs Rocna

[RichardS]

There is no load on the windlass if you are using the clutch. It simply locks the chain to the locked gipsy. Look at the spec of a Lofrans Falkon. You can do this with a slightly slack or tight chain. The locked gipsy doesnt have any consequences for the gearbox in the windlass.

I can't imagine how a clutch-locked gypsy cannot exert a force on the gearbox which it was not designed for. It is inevitable that if enough force is applied to the chain then something will give and all we are considering is what will give first.

In the case of our windlass, what gives first is that that chain starts to run out around the locked gypsy. Presumably, if the chain had a longer run than 90 degrees around the gypsy and gripped better, then the next thing to fail would be the pinion in the gearbox. With a chain lock bolted down through the deck with a backing plate , the chain between the lock and the windlass remains slack at all times and there is zero stress on the windlass when anchored.

If the chain lock fails then we are in big trouble because the deck is breaking apart and the state of the windlass would be the least of our worries.

Richard

 

[Neeves]

I can't imagine how a clutch-locked gypsy cannot exert a force on the gearbox which it was not designed for. It is inevitable that if enough force is applied to the chain then something will give and all we are considering is what will give first.

In the case of our windlass, what gives first is that that chain starts to run out around the locked gypsy.

If the chain lock fails then we are in big trouble because the deck is breaking apart and the state of the windlass would be the least of our worries.

Richard

I confess never to have considered that the chain would 'run out round' the locked gypsy but then we ALWAYS use a bridle (and have had 2 fail) but alway use our bit of string (dyneema) with a chain hook as back up (or belt and braces) as I assume you use your chain lock. As you say - the chain between bridle and windlass is alway slack and in case of failure the chain between our chain hook/dyneema is also always slack (tension is on the dyneema and its attachment point (which is a tension beam between crossbeam and bridgedeck (10mm thick alloy 'U' beam)

Jonathan

 

[geem]

I can't imagine how a clutch-locked gypsy cannot exert a force on the gearbox which it was not designed for. It is inevitable that if enough force is applied to the chain then something will give and all we are considering is what will give first.

In the case of our windlass, what gives first is that that chain starts to run out around the locked gypsy. Presumably, if the chain had a longer run than 90 degrees around the gypsy and gripped better, then the next thing to fail would be the pinion in the gearbox. With a chain lock bolted down through the deck with a backing plate , the chain between the lock and the windlass remains slack at all times and there is zero stress on the windlass when anchored.

If the chain lock fails then we are in big trouble because the deck is breaking apart and the state of the windlass would be the least of our worries.

Richard

Lets be clear here. We arent talking about using a windlass without a snubber. We use a very long snubber when anchoring. We take all anchor loads off the windlass. We are talking about securing the anchor to the boat whilst sailing. The Spade anchor on our boat sits on the bowroller with the anchor secured via a locked gypsy. The only load that the gypsy has to deal with is to resist the anchor sliding forward off the bowroller. All other forces on the anchor when burying the bow into a sea are taken by the substantial bow roller.

 

[geem]

Back on track, can anyone comment on the merits of a Rocna VS a Spade. My last boat had Rocna and I trusted it. My new boat has a Spade. I am not sure which is better, I worried about something jamming in the loop of the Rocna and I would think that it is another part of the anchor that could get snagged in coral. the Spade does not have the loop but no one really talks about them, has VYV seen bent Spades? Do they re-set as well as a Rocna and which has the highest holding power?

Our boat came with a new Rocna. Tried it but having previously had Spade anchors we sold the Rocna and bought another Spade. I guess its what ever you feel comfortable with but we love our Spade.

 

[moomba]

I'm not sure what all this "hole drilling in anchors" is about. We just flip a chain lock down onto the chain when the chain is in or out and that's it.

Presumably those drilling holes don't have any fail-safe method of securing the anchor when the chain is extended but rely on a snubber?

Richard

and if your chain lock fails ? it is called redundancy , and there is a lot of strain on the anchor not just on the Horizontal axis but the vertical axis in which the pin helps with. when the anchor is in the roller to stop movement .
I also have an old safety harness clipped on as well 25kg having strain put onto it will also weaking your chain through constant stress on the metal bashing through waves , as force is applied.
Always better to have an anchor secured by more than one means when out in chooppy seas

 

[doug748]

Back on track, can anyone comment on the merits of a Rocna VS a Spade. My last boat had Rocna and I trusted it. My new boat has a Spade. I am not sure which is better, I worried about something jamming in the loop of the Rocna and I would think that it is another part of the anchor that could get snagged in coral. the Spade does not have the loop but no one really talks about them, has VYV seen bent Spades? Do they re-set as well as a Rocna and which has the highest holding power?

The Spade came out better in this chap's work:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l59f-OjWoq0

Particularly the re-set which is a pretty brutal test.

I had the chance of a cheap one but veered away because I have seen a number of rusty examples and regalvanizing is not straightforward.
If I owned one I would be happy to keep it, going on the evidence of reports on the forum.

 

[RichardS]

and if your chain lock fails ? it is called redundancy , and there is a lot of strain on the anchor not just on the Horizontal axis but the vertical axis in which the pin helps with. when the anchor is in the roller to stop movement .
I also have an old safety harness clipped on as well 25kg having strain put onto it will also weaking your chain through constant stress on the metal bashing through waves , as force is applied.
Always better to have an anchor secured by more than one means when out in chooppy seas

You've missed the point I'm afraid.

I have a chain lock which is bolted through the deck. The only way it can fail is if the deck is being ripped apart and, at that point, whether the anchor is holding or not is going to be the least of my worries. The important feature of a chain lock is that it can be easily used in conjunction with the snubber when the anchor is down.

When the anchor is raised, the chain lock holds the chain in place and it can never break free unless the deck is splintering apart. Of course, the anchor swivel could come apart and I could lose the anchor ..... but if that is going to happen, it's going to happen when the anchor is on the seabed and under some stress.

The question is then being raised by me about what do those people who are drilling holes in the anchor use to take the pressure off the windlass when the anchor is down? They can't use the hole they've drilled, presumably, and they can't use a chain lock as they presumably don't have one of those or they wouldn't be drilling holes in the anchor.

So, presumably, they are using just a snubber and nothing else?

Which brings us back to your point about redundancy and having the anchor secured by more than one means .... which is an order of magnitude more important when the anchor is down and that wind is blowing.

Richard

 

[moomba]

My windlass doesnt rely on a a lock foot what ever that is. It has a clutch thst tightens on the gipsy to lock it down. Done over 20,000 nm with this set up including a recent 1200 nm to windward. No problemo. No hole through anchor. No pin through anchor no lashing holding the anchor. The Spade just tightens up on the roller and doesnt move. Happy New Year!

Nice to know but to dismiss lateral and horizontal loads on your clutch is your personnel preference at no point in this discussion did I say to have a pin was essential and was needed for everyone , there is something called risk and at how much do you want to risk , at some point metals fail. this is a fact, but some people wear life jackets all the time some dont. its called choice so statements like yours in your manner is in my opinion silly.
There is a well known utuber having forgotten to put their pin in lost their 20kg Rocana in the North Pacific as their clutch failed due to heavy seas!

 

[moomba]

You've missed the point I'm afraid.

I have a chain lock which is bolted through the deck. The only way it can fail is if the deck is being ripped apart and, at that point, whether the anchor is holding or not is going to be the least of my worries. The important feature of a chain lock is that it can be easily used in conjunction with the snubber when the anchor is down.

When the anchor is raised, the chain lock holds the chain in place and it can never break free unless the deck is splintering apart. Of course, the anchor swivel could come apart and I could lose the anchor ..... but if that is going to happen, it's going to happen when the anchor is on the seabed and under some stress.

The question is then being raised by me about what do those people who are drilling holes in the anchor use to take the pressure off the windlass when the anchor is down? They can't use the hole they've drilled, presumably, and they can't use a chain lock as they presumably don't have one of those or they wouldn't be drilling holes in the anchor.

So, presumably, they are using just a snubber and nothing else?

Which brings us back to your point about redundancy and having the anchor secured by more than one means .... which is an order of magnitude more important when the anchor is down and that wind is blowing.

Richard

Yes sorry my bad, we were talking about different things . my hole is simply to put a pin through when it is on the roller to avoid lateral load and another safety part.
I use a large hook on chain and then tie of to cleat fr a snubber

 

[geem]

Nice to know but to dismiss lateral and horizontal loads on your clutch is your personnel preference at no point in this discussion did I say to have a pin was essential and was needed for everyone , there is something called risk and at how much do you want to risk , at some point metals fail. this is a fact, but some people wear life jackets all the time some dont. its called choice so statements like yours in your manner is in my opinion silly.
There is a well known utuber having forgotten to put their pin in lost their 20kg Rocana in the North Pacific as their clutch failed due to heavy seas!

There isnt a heavy sea that can damage my clutch! Having just sailed the wrong way from Panama to the West Indies some 1500nm into the weather, my windlass spent a fair amount of time under water. Just to be clear, my Windlass has a clutch and a brake. Both are locked off when sailing. The windlass is a 55kg beast with a 1.7kw motor. The bow roller has a double roller arrangement on a pivot so we always have two rollers in contact with the anchor in its stowed position. In addition there is a seperate roller that the chain has to pass under just before the windlass that stops the chain from jumping off the gypsy and ensures we have maximum contact. Its set up for the job. Its totally secure and looks like the whole thing has been on steroids. If you havent got this set up then I can understand the need for string and pins to secure the anchor.

 

[moomba]

There isnt a heavy sea that can damage my clutch! Having just sailed the wrong way from Panama to the West Indies some 1500nm into the weather, my windlass spent a fair amount of time under water. Just to be clear, my Windlass has a clutch and a brake. Both are locked off when sailing. The windlass is a 55kg beast with a 1.7kw motor. The bow roller has a double roller arrangement on a pivot so we always have two rollers in contact with the anchor in its stowed position. In addition there is a seperate roller that the chain has to pass under just before the windlass that stops the chain from jumping off the gypsy and ensures we have maximum contact. Its set up for the job. Its totally secure and looks like the whole thing has been on steroids. If you havent got this set up then I can understand the need for string and pins to secure the anchor.

yes your set up sounds the bomb , yes each set up is unique to their boat. happy sailing

 

[BelleSerene]

There is a well known utuber having forgotten to put their pin in lost their 20kg Rocana in the North Pacific as their clutch failed due to heavy seas!

Should have tied off the bitter end inside his anchor locker.

 

[Neeves]

Should have tied off the bitter end inside his anchor locker.

Been there, done that - we have a 'u' bolt (suitably reinforced). We, I, had attached the bitter end to the 'u' bolt with a shackle. We were anchoring in deep water, clutch slipped. chain ran our, faster and faster, there was a bang as we got to the end of the chain and tension hit the shackle/'U' bolt, chain stopped momentarily and then carried on and the bitter end swept over the bow roller like a snake going down a hole. I monetarily thought of grabbing the snake's tail - possibly fortunately I was too slow.

My first example of crevice corrosion (of a cheap Chinese shackle) - you learn very quickly from your mistakes

We did have the nouse to have a spare rode and anchor. We went to bed.

Next day we trawled for the errant chain, took all morning. We have a 'sort of' wire grapnel and we simply ran a grid back and forth until we caught the chain, we were over mud (and it was about 15m deep).

The big problem is - if you catch the chain in the middle and you are working from a small dinghy then the load of the 2 halfs of the chain, spread as a long line is simply too much for a dinghy, with 2 people in it. Lift the chain and the dinghy sinks, or capsizes. Our grapnel was on a floating line. We had to retire to mother ship, motor to the floating line, lift line, work to one end, (hopefully the bitter end) and then retrieve.

All good fun.

We lash the bitter end to the 'U' bolt now.

Jonathan

 

[moomba]

Should have tied off the bitter end inside his anchor locker.

It would seem that a 20kg anchor running free will cause more than just the weight of the anchor as the force generated at the bitter end would have been significant to snap it. I think every one should check their little bit of string holding their chain on :encouragement:

 

[vyv_cox]

And another little tip based on similar experience. If your bitter end rope is long it is extremely difficult to haul back 60 metres of chain plus an anchor without being able to use the windlass. My bitter end rope now finishes inside the locker so that the chain is always on the gypsy.

 

[geem]

And another little tip based on similar experience. If your bitter end rope is long it is extremely difficult to haul back 60 metres of chain plus an anchor without being able to use the windlass. My bitter end rope now finishes inside the locker so that the chain is always on the gypsy.

Our 200ft of chain has an additional 165ft of 1” abchorplait spliced on. Fortunately the chain gypsy will also grip the anchorplait so getting the chain back on the gypsy is pretty simple

 

[RupertW]

And another little tip based on similar experience. If your bitter end rope is long it is extremely difficult to haul back 60 metres of chain plus an anchor without being able to use the windlass. My bitter end rope now finishes inside the locker so that the chain is always on the gypsy.

We have the same and prefer a thin rope to anything stronger as it's job is to be easily cuttable under load. We tie our anchor by permanently attached cord to the pulpit base so if the gypsy happened to slip for whatever reason then nothing would happen - for us I can only imagine it happening if we didn't tighten up the clutch enough after letting it go free but we should have noticed that as the anchor was hauled up.

When actually anchored I guess we rely on only two things to hold the anchor - the windlass itself which we've obviously tested when setting the anchor under hard reverse, and the bridle/snubber. We would be fine if either went but not both as we dont currently have any kind of chain lock - which I think I'll have a look at now.

 

[geem]

We have the same and prefer a thin rope to anything stronger as it's job is to be easily cuttable under load. We tie our anchor by permanently attached cord to the pulpit base so if the gypsy happened to slip for whatever reason then nothing would happen - for us I can only imagine it happening if we didn't tighten up the clutch enough after letting it go free but we should have noticed that as the anchor was hauled up.

When actually anchored I guess we rely on only two things to hold the anchor - the windlass itself which we've obviously tested when setting the anchor under hard reverse, and the bridle/snubber. We would be fine if either went but not both as we dont currently have any kind of chain lock - which I think I'll have a look at now.

We always put the snubber on the anchor chain before reversing the anchor in. Why load the windlass up unneccessarily when the snubber can take the load?

 

[vyv_cox]

I can only imagine it happening if we didn't tighten up the clutch enough after letting it go free but we should have noticed that as the anchor was hauled up.

We have a capstan on top of the windlass that we use for lazy lines in Greek ports that have them. To use the capstan it is necessary to disengage the clutch. We omitted to shackle the anchor chain to a U-bolt that is there for the purpose. We left the port, started to sail in quite lively conditions and the anchor fell off the roller, taking all the chain with it. We finished up anchored in 40 metres, held only by the bitter end rope. Recovery from this situation took a long time and hard work. So now the rope is short, still easily cut if we had to, but the chain remains on the gypsy.

 

[RupertW]

We always put the snubber on the anchor chain before reversing the anchor in. Why load the windlass up unneccessarily when the snubber can take the load?

To test the windlass under load every time. It's never the kind of shock load you might get at anchor as we start at idling revs to slowly straighten out the chain then when the boat stops moving (assuming it does - if not then up anchor and start again), we gradually build the revs up until it is briefly at full astern with chain bar taut and the boat still at rest. I see the bridle as a way of dampening snatch loads and an extra fail point rather than relying on windlass alone. If I didn't trust the windlass at high load I'd need a third alternative.