Mangusta 70 - 80ft (1996 - 2004) Advice

[Portofino]

Wow Thosa Italma ride smooth.

Yep .
.Let’s not go there .

 

[jfm]

The longer event may subjectively feel more comfortable I am not denying that just adding top heavy boats rock about longer than lower flatter lower CoG boats .
Our hands in this example are off our plates and glasses quicker than the top heavy boats because ours has settled down faster There’s is still rocking necessitating a longer time hand holding table contents . = owners of toppy boats rush to stabiliser shop faster than the lower CoG sports boats .

That’s such a weak analysis. Probably not worth explaining why and you're not interested in the science

Below is a vid of a sports boat taken from a toppy flybridge and even 700kg of hard top just where it should be, above the cameraman. Both boats are beam onto the waves, but they’re diddy little waves. The roll period of the big toppy boat is maybe 2 seconds and it almost doesn't notice such small waves due to its weight and height (=angular momentum). Roll period of the small sports boat is more like 0.5 seconds, just like in your Portofino harbour entrance video.

Only one crew in this video needs to hold onto its plates.

As regards the video I’m not bothered about how far the sports boat rolls, even though that’s a thing in itself. I’m bothered about how fast it rolls- something like twice a second. That’s the discomfort, all afternoon.

You are correct that if the waves instantly stopped (like a passing wake scenario on a zero wind day) the sportsboat would stop its vomitty rolling faster than the toppy flybridge would stop its gentle slow little roll, by perhaps 15 seconds, which is a very small mercy bestowed by mother nature on the sportsboat crew. Alas for them, in a typical anchorage the (little) waves last all afternoon.

 

[Portofino]

^ J rudge has his gyro on in this vid ? and is in deeper water .That sports boat does roll excessively in that vid .Again by experience and observation very occasionally a wave catches one boat out only one .You see this most days .There will be some science and it’s caught on camera regurgitated right there .But one swallow does not make a summer .
Its a vid where by all rock more or less together thats more useful .That Porto entrance vid illustrated every one just doing that .

Also the third vid In between the quoting the OP “ ride smooth “ shots there were 3 anchorage scenes in particular the rather choppy last one ,Every one’s happy no pressure on theses boats to add stabs .

Nor a gusta 80 if one was in the same anchorage.

I do feel too heaviness in todays spacious newer FBs and gyros go hand in hand more than sports boats .It’s a lot of factors ownership use age pattern and easily ( read cheap + effective ) build instal theses days .Designers that were basically previously restricted from top heaviness have whole new place to go - upwards because the added gyro solves the sin .That sin rolling @ anchor we see every day with toppy boats .

I would try before buying first I have always said this generally .I know it’s difficult navigating a test ( read fender kicking joy ride ) in a boat .More so with gyros to get the size and application effectiveness .There are a few disappointments out there .Also trim , running angles , NVH , visibility from helm stations etc etc .

For instance I was driving a sports car the other day pre ABS and it’s braking on the limit was a revelation , you could feel which corner was about to lock up and adjust your peddle pressure or steering angle or both ( in a bend ) to suit .Sooooo much more involvement.
Standard ABS has been a game changer I am not gonna petition against it just roll with it when it’s usefulness comes up in car conversation.

If you and MapishM think every used 80 ft sports boat needs a must have gyro retro fitted fine .My view is ordinarily they don’t .

 

[jrudge]

Flattered you think I have a 78 with a hard top but I don’t ! Not me guv

a gyro however is a wonderful thing

 

[MapisM]

You are saying everyone with a sports boat endures a boat that’s not comfortable at rest.

Absolutely.
It's the idea of sportboats lifestyle that sells them, not the reality.
In fact, it's no coincidence that they are mostly chosen by inexperienced boaters.
OP included, obviously with absolutely no offense intended.
We have all been inexperienced - and in some ways, we will always be.

If you and MapishM think every used 80 ft sports boat needs a must have gyro retro fitted fine. My view is ordinarily they don’t.

Where/how did I say that, exactly?
Pleasure boats have been around for decades, and none of them sank due to the lack of stabilizers, so obviously no boat "needs" them.
BUT, each and every boat greatly benefits from them in terms of comfort.
Some more than others, and contrarily to what you keep saying, sportboats are firmly in the "some" category, rather than the "others".
Regardless, if you put it as a matter of "need", who really needs a boat at all?

 

[stelican]

Porto.
Don't take it to heart as the video in JFM's post 42 has obviously been speeded up!

 

[DAW]

Some thoughts on the above based on real world experiences ... apologies in advance for the length of the post.

On fins v gyro ...

I have a 2019 Sunseeker Predator 57 with Sleipner vector fins, and a friend with a 2021 Predator 60 fitted with a Seakeeper gyro. The P57 and P60 are basically the same boat with cosmetic changes to the interior, so its possible to make a direct comparison between the performance of the two systems.

At anchor, fins and gyro are about the same ... both work well and provide almost total roll reduction. Underway is a different experience altogether. Above 10 knots the gyro seems to have limited impact on reducing roll and improving stability, whereas the fins continue to work regardless of the speed. This can make a big difference in heavy weather depending on the direction of approach to the waves/swell.

With fins you lose perhaps 1 knot of top speed and increase fuel consumption slightly due to the additional drag, but the difference is really marginal when when compared with the impact of mid-season fouling. Fins impact significantly on cornering characteristics, making the boat run much flatter through turns, which can be positive or negative depending on your point of view (you can always switch them off if you want the boat to heel over). They also seem to help with maintaining running angle and keeping the boat generally more level, with less use of trim tabs needed.

Both fins and gyro require the generator to be running at anchor ... but we normally turn on the generator as soon as we disconnect shore power to run refrigeration, ice-maker, a/c, etc. so I don't see this as a consideration. Given all the other things you have to do to make a 50-60 foot boat ready to go to sea, I also don't see the 30-45 minutes required to spool up a gyro as a major downside. The gyro seems to be slightly noisier in operation, but you don't really hear this over the noise of the generator. So, even in this respect.

I guess one consideration which may affect wear and tear and long-term working life is that fins only work when needed and can be switched on and off instantly, whereas a gyro is working all the time and has an extended start-up/shut-down time. Fin systems have many different components (actuators, hydraulics, multiple PTOs, etc.) located in different areas of the boat, but in practice seem to be relatively trouble free and other than periodic servicing are maintenance free. Gyros should be more robust as they are delivered as a "sealed unit", but I've heard many more reports of replacement or repair being needed (particularly due to bearing failure). So, inconclusive on this one.

In my experience, the major downside of fins is the paddling effect in crowded anchorages when there is significant swell or chop. It's not an issue in normal conditions and you can always reduce the gain/speed to minimise the effect, but you still have to be aware that you could swing differently to other boats. It's not unusual for us to find ourselves pointing in a totally different direction to everyone else as the fins fight against the waves and counteract the impact of wind/tide. There is always a risk of swimming forward over the anchor, so we generally turn off the fins at night. There is some additional maintenance (particularly of the hydraulics), you (and your neighbours) have to be more careful with lazy lines, etc. in marinas and you need to make sure guests are aware of the movement of the fins and stay away from them when swimming.

Overall, I think the gyro is perhaps a better solution for anchoring, but fins are more versatile with a bigger range of operation. With or without stabilisation switched on, we don't seem to have a lot of problems with guests becoming sea-sick at anchor, but 1-2 hours cruising at 20-22 knots in a rolling sea can be a problem for many. For me the high-speed performance of fins is worth the downside of paddling at anchor and the other minor inconveniences.

On heavy flybridge v light weight sports cruiser ...

I agree entirely with the comments about the physics behind the propensity to roll, roll frequency, etc. for different boats. However, I wonder if in the real world this debate comes down to differences in hull design, overall weight, "inertia", centre of gravity/roll and where you are sitting on the boat, rather than whether the design is a flybridge or a sports cruiser.

I've only ever owned sports cruiser style boats and like some others here, before wide-spread adoption of stabilisation I've sat in anchorages watching people on the top deck of mid-size flybridges rolling uncomfortably and felt smug about being on a sports cruiser so low to the water. However, it doesn't mean we are rolling less or more slowly, it just feels/looks less uncomfortable because we are sitting lower and closer to the centre of rotation.

My current Sunseeker P57 is a heavy boat for its size, weighing in at 32-33T fully laden, and is quite beamy. It weighs considerably more than my previous Portofino 53 which was only a few feet shorter, slightly narrower, had a deeper V hull and weighed only 21-22T. For boats of relatively similar size and style, the difference in comfort at anchor is remarkable. Although not uncomfortable, the P53 felt as though it was always moving, whereas the P57 is much more stable, even without stabilisation.

So my conclusion is that in the real world a beamy, heavy boat with a flatter bottom will usually be more resistant to roll than one which is narrow, light weight and with a deep-vee hull. When it does start to roll, it will do so more slowly and once the moving force has been removed, it will come to rest more quickly. All consistent with basic principals of physics and fluid dynamics.

On the Mangusta 80, etc. ...

I've been fortunate enough to spend a fair amount of time on Mangusta's (mostly the 92) and think they are amazing boats for the purpose for which they have been designed with great build quality. However, I would never consider owning one for the reasons set out below.

For me, Mangusta's are principally intended to be big day-boats and to serve as party platforms. They are great for high speed blasts along the coast, days spent in calm anchorages and nights spent tied up in marinas, all in perfect weather. All of this they do superbly well, but at an eye-watering cost. At this size, they have the accommodation for longer stays and are great for a few days, or a week or two, but this is not their intended purpose. For long-term cruising or a as a full-time, live-aboard boat, the upper deck layout and absence of a flybridge mean they are seriously compromised.

The maintenance expenses on a boat this size can be eye-watering particularly as the boat ages. If you stick with the manufacturers recommended servicing schedule and authorised service agents then its easy to spend EUR 30-40K per year on routine servicing in the mechanical areas alone, and 5/10 year major maintenance/overhauls can cost EUR +150K assuming nothing is broken. Anything which does break is usually expensive ... I know of a 2008 Mangusta 92 where replacement of failed AC components last year cost over EUR 80K, and that was in addition to an overdue QL3 service on the MTU 16V2000 engines which cost EUR 150K (including EUR 70K for replacement of the 32 injectors).

Another consideration is whether you need experienced crew with good mechanical knowledge ... looking after and running a boat with shaft-drives and engines from a manufacturer such as Volvo Penta, MAN or Caterpillar is within the capabilities of many experienced owner/operators, but once you move into the world of MTU, Kamewa drives, etc. its a whole different proposition. These boats were designed to be operated and maintained by experienced professional crew and not by DIY owners.

I've spent time on Mangusta 92s and on Sunseeker Predator 84/92s and I would say that the Mangusta has a tendency to roll more in anchorages and also in a beam sea. This is not uncomfortable ... as others have said, they are big heavy boats and can cut through most sea conditions ... but definitely not as stable as some of their direct equivalents or competitors. Also, most Mangustas don't seem to be fitted with any kind of stabilisation, whereas Sunseekers et al. of this generation usually have TRAC fins, and those that don't have often been retrofitted with gyros.

So, for all of the above reasons, only consider buying a Mangusta of this age if you really want a big sports cruiser, intend to use it mostly for day use or trips of short duration, and have very, very deep pockets. Most are now 10-20 years old and approaching the age where major systems start to fail or require major overhaul or rebuild. They can be relatively cheap to buy on the brokerage market, but will always be expensive to run and usually take a long time to sell.

Once again ... apologies for the thread drift and the long post

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

tbh Itama roll more not because of there height, but of cause of the Deep-Vee hull. The deeper the hull the more the roll. It is the Deep Vee which makes the Itama roll faster.
It is a reason why Bertram lost market to Hatteras back in the sixties and seventies.... Since trolling fishing in beamy seas on the Hunt Bertrams was according to many unbearable....
Also why custom sportfish (today even production ones with the exception of Bertram) have always a medium Vee (low medium 14 or less) or flat Vee (10 degrees or less) in the last third part of the hull.
Height has little to do with it.

Though Itama's usually roll less if you compare them size with size.
I was once on a Ferretti 53 with an old Itama 45 next to us to portside, in an open bay in Tropea.
Two big Azimut 62 and 68s pass in planning speed at about twenty knots (less to a nm away) with the wake coming on the beam. Result the Itama rolled less then the Ferretti.
Now I have been on a lot of boats and the Ferretti 53 is one of the less rolling boats in its size.
Obviously discussing rolling is a very open book, and there are other things to factor. Apart height, your waterline length to LOA also plays another important factor, and so on so forth.
What I know for sure is one thing certain, that I know a lot of Itama (more so the old ones then new ones) and no one is ever interested to fit a Gyro stabilizer.
A friend of mine who has an Itama 60 and had a Princess V78 which he sold and now has Riva 86 Domino is not least interested to fit the gyro in the Itama.
He fitted it on the Princess straight after the purchase as he said it was annoying on anchor. At the time I asked him if he ever needed on the Itama 60 and his reply was a straight No.
The Itama is used off the Naples Sorrento coast. The big Riva and previously the Riva are used for the cruise.
Those who have been around Capri now the area gets busy, under the two Farglioni rocks. So its not like the Itama stays in cosy bay.

Again this thread has drifted along nicely.... my 2 cents on the subject.

 

[jfm]

...making the boat run much flatter through turns, which can be positive or negative depending on your point of view (you can always switch them off if you want the boat to heel over).

Very sensible stuff DAW, thanks.

By the way, the reason a gyro is significantly worse than fins underway is down to fundamental laws of physics and gyros - it's not any kind of glitch. So it won't get any better. Gyros get worse at levelling the boat as speed rises; fins get better.

Regarding your point above, there is a setting deep in the Sleipner menu where you can choose the bank angle profile in turns. Rather clever, because you want some bank angle, but this lets you choose exactly what you like best. It's deep in the menu and you need the technician PIN number not just the 1-2-3-4. I have the number but not to hand - I can dig it if you need (though, be careful in there)

 

[Hurricane]

Very sensible stuff DAW, thanks.

By the way, the reason a gyro is significantly worse than fins underway is down to fundamental laws of physics and gyros - it's not any kind of glitch. So it won't get any better. Gyros get worse at levelling the boat as speed rises; fins get better.

Regarding your point above, there is a setting deep in the Sleipner menu where you can choose the bank angle profile in turns. Rather clever, because you want some bank angle, but this lets you choose exactly what you like best. It's deep in the menu and you need the technician PIN number not just the 1-2-3-4. I have the number but not to hand - I can dig it if you need (though, be careful in there)

Reminds me of a trip with MYAG on his Sunseeker.
MapisM was there at the time - maybe he will also remember.
He showed us the boat turning with the aid if his fin stabilisers and with them switched off.
Impressive how the boat stayed flat during a turn with the fins on and banked with them switched off.

 

[jfm]

Reminds me of a trip with MYAG on his Sunseeker.
MapisM was there at the time - maybe he will also remember.
He showed us the boat turning with the aid if his fin stabilisers and with them switched off.
Impressive how the boat stayed flat during a turn with the fins on and banked with them switched off.

That was ABT Trac fins. with Sleipner you leave them on and choose how much banking you want (and you don't want zero!). The computer knows you're turning and how harshly, becuase its accelerometers sense the boat's acceleration towards the centre of the turning circle, so it's a reasonably simple algorithm.

 

[jfm]

^ J rudge has his gyro on in this vid ? and is in deeper water .That sports boat does roll excessively in that vid .Again by experience and observation very occasionally a wave catches one boat out only one .You see this most days .There will be some science and it’s caught on camera regurgitated right there .But one swallow does not make a summer .
Its a vid where by all rock more or less together thats more useful .That Porto entrance vid illustrated every one just doing that .

Also the third vid In between the quoting the OP “ ride smooth “ shots there were 3 anchorage scenes in particular the rather choppy last one ,Every one’s happy no pressure on theses boats to add stabs .

Nor a gusta 80 if one was in the same anchorage.

I do feel too heaviness in todays spacious newer FBs and gyros go hand in hand more than sports boats .It’s a lot of factors ownership use age pattern and easily ( read cheap + effective ) build instal theses days .Designers that were basically previously restricted from top heaviness have whole new place to go - upwards because the added gyro solves the sin .That sin rolling @ anchor we see every day with toppy boats .

I would try before buying first I have always said this generally .I know it’s difficult navigating a test ( read fender kicking joy ride ) in a boat .More so with gyros to get the size and application effectiveness .There are a few disappointments out there .Also trim , running angles , NVH , visibility from helm stations etc etc .

For instance I was driving a sports car the other day pre ABS and it’s braking on the limit was a revelation , you could feel which corner was about to lock up and adjust your peddle pressure or steering angle or both ( in a bend ) to suit .Sooooo much more involvement.
Standard ABS has been a game changer I am not gonna petition against it just roll with it when it’s usefulness comes up in car conversation.

If you and MapishM think every used 80 ft sports boat needs a must have gyro retro fitted fine .My view is ordinarily they don’t .

No worries. I was merely settling your question about who should hold onto plates
That wasn't a swallow - it rolled like that all afternoon.
You're focussing on roll angle. I was talking about roll period = faster on the low profile boat, which doesn't matter to many including you but might to OP as a liveaboarder.
No worries - done to death imho.

 

[jfm]

...your waterline length to LOA also plays another important factor...

I don't buy that at all but think we have done this to death enough

 

[jfm]

Porto.
Don't take it to heart as the video in JFM's post 42 has obviously been speeded up!

If only

 

[Portofino]

tbh Itama roll more not because of there height, but of cause of the Deep-Vee hull. The deeper the hull the more the roll. It is the Deep Vee which makes the Itama roll faster.
It is a reason why Bertram lost market to Hatteras back in the sixties and seventies.... Since trolling fishing in beamy seas on the Hunt Bertrams was according to many unbearable....
Also why custom sportfish (today even production ones with the exception of Bertram) have always a medium Vee (low medium 14 or less) or flat Vee (10 degrees or less) in the last third part of the hull.
Height has little to do with it.

Though Itama's usually roll less if you compare them size with size.
I was once on a Ferretti 53 with an old Itama 45 next to us to portside, in an open bay in Tropea.
Two big Azimut 62 and 68s pass in planning speed at about twenty knots (less to a nm away) with the wake coming on the beam. Result the Itama rolled less then the Ferretti.
Now I have been on a lot of boats and the Ferretti 53 is one of the less rolling boats in its size.
Obviously discussing rolling is a very open book, and there are other things to factor. Apart height, your waterline length to LOA also plays another important factor, and so on so forth.
What I know for sure is one thing certain, that I know a lot of Itama (more so the old ones then new ones) and no one is ever interested to fit a Gyro stabilizer.
A friend of mine who has an Itama 60 and had a Princess V78 which he sold and now has Riva 86 Domino is not least interested to fit the gyro in the Itama.
He fitted it on the Princess straight after the purchase as he said it was annoying on anchor. At the time I asked him if he ever needed on the Itama 60 and his reply was a straight No.
The Itama is used off the Naples Sorrento coast. The big Riva and previously the Riva are used for the cruise.
Those who have been around Capri now the area gets busy, under the two Farglioni rocks. So its not like the Itama stays in cosy bay.

Again this thread has drifted along nicely.... my 2 cents on the subject.

Yup No Itama owners in the queue at the stabiliser shop(s) .

That would be enlightening work .Ask sea-keeper who there customers are .
Get that list to peruse.
Both factory fit and the retro mkt . Year on year ,

@ DAW nice post btw .
I once met a guy Monaco flagged Riva 76 in the yard at the side of our boat .He was have fins retro fitted .Story was it his last chance saloon in terms of Wife sea sickness .So bad he was forced to stabilise up or she would refuse to boat .They we’re curved btw .Any how I later bumped into him and asked about the wife ( the fin project ) “ Did it do the trick “ etc .He told me yes but it knocked 5 knots off the speed .A fast boat anyhow say 38 / 40 flat out so 32/24 cruise at a engine life happy 1900 rpm .
But now he uses more rpm around 2100 .

Ferretti group as you know do a preview show invitation only @ Monaco YC just before Cannes .It’s a wet show you go out and helm them ,Fortunately we get annual invites .

We found ourselves ( via the dog ) attached to the FG dealer in California, who kindly invited us on a Pershing 115 tripple .
The story went from the mouth of the full time skipper the owner was a serial Sunseeker sports cruiser guy .Porto 53 to Pred 72 to pred 82 to Pred 95 .That’s where it all stalled .This captain had followed the journey ..On the Pred 95 the wife just couldn’t get on with the motion and kept getting sick .Both running with fins and even @ anchor
.So much so once on a trip to Corsica she opted to fly over .

It was finned by S Skr at build .I am not sure if the others were btw ,

The point is even @ anchor with the fins she couldn’t get on with it .Some funny movement the Capt did report .

Perhaps JFM can come in on this ? Instal issues , un calibrated ? Or just while roll is reduced as per the science …up pops my “ subjectivity “ point .You can’t say to her you SHOULD feel better because according to the science …..etc .

The upshot is the new Pred 95 was sold and they moved ( with the same crew ) to this P115 .
Expensive business keeping the wives on board the hobby chaps .Tell me about it !

This had gyros in stead I think more than 1 .They were directed to Pershing by the Capt who had mentioned his predicament to other captains ,for fear if the owners sells up packs it in , he would be risking unemployment .

Its motion under way and @ anchor the P115 was completely different to the S/Skr gyros on or off .

It was basically the base hull form of the Pred 95 despite fin s or turned around the basic motion of the P 115 that made the difference gyros on or off ,
She stopped flying to Corsica, now a days rides with family in the P115 .Capt reported its quicker too over the Pred .Buts that not the reason the Pred was ditched .

Now that’s a big ask to ditch Sunseeker by this serial owner after a decade of happy boating .Just shows hull form does play a significant role in boat movement.

 

[Portofino]

No worries. I was merely settling your question about who should hold onto plates
That wasn't a swallow - it rolled like that all afternoon.
You're focussing on roll angle. I was talking about roll period = faster on the low profile boat, which doesn't matter to many including you but might to OP as a liveaboarder.
No worries - done to death imho.

It’s fascinating stuff discussing stabs all the same ,Sharing experiences n all .

 

[MapisM]

Reminds me of a trip with MYAG on his Sunseeker.
MapisM was there at the time - maybe he will also remember.
He showed us the boat turning with the aid if his fin stabilisers and with them switched off.
Impressive how the boat stayed flat during a turn with the fins on and banked with them switched off.

Yup, impressive stuff.
That's an inherent advantage of fins over gyros: they can contrast either a roll or a list forever, as long as the boat is moving through water.

I believe the comparison was actually between fins active vs. center locked (rather than off), but the difference is academic.
And yes, his Y80 fins were ABT as jfm said. Solid stuff, hugely popular in the US.
BTW, they also allow some fine tuning along the lines jfm mentioned, but unless they changed their control panel lately, it takes an ABT technician with its notebook to change that.
So, it's essentially an initial commissioning job. One of which I had a chance to witness years ago on an Outer Reef, in some ocean swell at Ft.Lauderdale.
What impressed me most was that when the ABT engineer simulated a fault by center locking one of the fins, nobody onboard was able to tell the difference - including some highly experienced guys.
If it weren't for the gauges showing one fin locked and the other working harder, I would have thought that he was taking the p!ss out of us... ?

 

[MapisM]

Yup No Itama owners in the queue at the stabiliser shop(s).

'Course not, they spent all their boating budget at the fuel dock!
Sorry, couldn't resist...

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

'Course not, they spent all their boating budget at the fuel dock!
Sorry, couldn't resist...

Cause they can ride, more then anything else.
Length to length and weight to weight they usually drink less to most comparable boats at a faster cruiser.

 

[MapisM]

R U for real?
Now deep vee boats, on top of not rolling at anchor, are also fuel efficient?
Poweryachtblog, would you mind telling us something about that?