SageMaster
Active Member
Do you think the Leopard 24M jets performs better than Magusta 80 on surface drives? Are the jets thirtier on juice and maintenance?
Mangusta 70 - 80ft (1996 - 2004) Advice
- Thread starter SageMaster
- Start date
MapisM
Well-Known Member
They do build 70+ feet boats, but by heart I'd say they are all relatively recent models, which in turn means higher prices - also because Rivieras hold their value pretty well.
Regardless, I don't think it's correct to associate the liveaboard needs with a large-ish boat size.
Imho, the main triggers are 1) the number of people (which I can't recall to have been mentioned yet), and 2) whether the boat is going to be crewed, vs. owner operated.
I mean, myself and the Admiral have lived aboard our previous 53' boat for almost 10 years, and 5 with the current 56'.
And among the almost 80 (yep, not a typo) boats that we saw before going for the current one, many were larger (up to 86 feet!), and almost all of them could be bought for even less money.
BUT, if there's one thing we are not missing, it's more GRP and interiors to keep cleaned, if you see what I mean...
OTOH, if the cruising (rather than liveaboard) plans include long range passages, possibly also in rough conditions, then of course size matters.
Then again, in this case it's rather the TYPE than the size of boat that should be considered.
I'd rather spend a week of bluewater cruising with a Nordhavn 62 (or even a Fleming 55!) than one single day in an 80' 'Gusta.....
MapisM
Well-Known Member
Just in case SageMaster is wondering, "slightly" means that there's just a difference of one or two digits...
jfm
Well-Known Member
I have spent plenty of time at sea/living on Leopard 23m. IMHO, you should not assume you can put a gyro in the garage unless you are happy to lose the tender - the tender fills the garage. Also the garage floor is not structural.
On a 23m hard top sports cruiser you have very limited space for solar panels. They will produce a trickle of charge, so are not useless, but they will not create any meaningful reduction in generator use. Anyway you will need a generator running all the time for stabilisation and airco. This type of boat has a fast roll period so you need powerful stabilisation that will be far beyond what batteries/solar can run.
On a 23m hard top sports cruiser you have very limited space for solar panels. They will produce a trickle of charge, so are not useless, but they will not create any meaningful reduction in generator use. Anyway you will need a generator running all the time for stabilisation and airco. This type of boat has a fast roll period so you need powerful stabilisation that will be far beyond what batteries/solar can run.
SageMaster
Active Member
Love to see some images of your flybridge jfm.
jfm
Well-Known Member
I'll do a thread on it fairly soon, when I find some time.
PowerYachtBlog
Well-Known Member
I meant installing it under the garage floor in that empty space which some Leopards have vacant. The one I manage is vacant.
The hard top slides backwards so putting solar panels on top of it is ok, but as JFM says when you go in this size you do need generators running non stop.
I think if you want to add more batteries especially Lithium ones to Gyro cannot be made as a usuable space would be under the garage floor. The Leopard 23 has eight batteries bridged (not a lot for a 23 meter). You can add another bank possiblly making them 12/15 the most. And while the engine room is well laid out, taking more space for batteries
Putting a lot of weight at the back then might not help.
JFM is spot on the fast roll period, as the Leopard 23m with HT is fairly high, and rather slim for its size.
So yes it is possible that to make the size Gyro work it would be needed to be of an important power and size to make it work, and then it is possible you have to lose some of the tender garage space.
The hard top slides backwards so putting solar panels on top of it is ok, but as JFM says when you go in this size you do need generators running non stop.
I think if you want to add more batteries especially Lithium ones to Gyro cannot be made as a usuable space would be under the garage floor. The Leopard 23 has eight batteries bridged (not a lot for a 23 meter). You can add another bank possiblly making them 12/15 the most. And while the engine room is well laid out, taking more space for batteries
Putting a lot of weight at the back then might not help.
JFM is spot on the fast roll period, as the Leopard 23m with HT is fairly high, and rather slim for its size.
So yes it is possible that to make the size Gyro work it would be needed to be of an important power and size to make it work, and then it is possible you have to lose some of the tender garage space.
jfm
Well-Known Member
It's because it is low that it has a fast roll period. Weight high up (away from the roll centre) like a flybridge boat, makes for a slower roll period.
stelican
Well-Known Member
Motor.
Just thinking big deck level saloon large flybridge maybe available with smaller engines.
Plenty for sale in Aus.
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Portofino
Well-Known Member
And it lasts longer . The event .
keeps on moving albeit at a more comfortable ( subjective ) speed .So as the weight and height of superstructure increases the addiction to a gyro increases .
Can‘t see a 60 or 80 ton 80 ftr Mangusta struggling sans gyro as much as a say top heavy 55 FB volumed out for int space everywhere.
It all depends where the guys gonna keep it and cruise about , prevailing swell or indeed calm and passing wake density .
Anchored twixt Lerins in summer during a westerly , you know when the swell runs right between AND every one out drives through the channel + extra ferry boats are time tabled then yes I wish I had a gyro some days .
Move 10-15 mins across the bay of Cannes and tuck under Theuole and it’s dead calm sheltered …..white horses in the bay and rade . No need for one save the weight and geny time .
Pretty low density boat wise where I am now .
Near home port out for a cool off + swim
Itama off Liguria
Itama @ anchor
Portofino …….spot the Gusta 165
With a budget of 600 dollars I would not say a gyro or stabs are essential even here ^ .
SageMaster
Active Member
Good to know will take into consideration.
jfm
Well-Known Member
That's just not correct. you WANT the event to last longer. If you have two otherwise identical boats, one with a roll period 3 seconds and one with a roll period 1 seconds, the 3 second boat is MUCH more comfortable to a human, BECAUSE the event lasts 3x longer. And if you want then to add stabilisation, the 3 seconder is easier to stabilise. "Addiction to" stabilisation is going to be much stronger in a boat without weight +height.
Your second video anchored outside Portofino proves this. The itama is rolling at less than a one second roll period while the tall fat Riva Corsaro in the distance would be at 3 seconds if it turned its stabs off. Just watching the Itama in the first couple of seconds of the video would make some people seasick. If the roll were of the same amplitude but at 3 seconds roll period, it would be far far more comfortable.
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Portofino
Well-Known Member
I can’t see a un stabilised 80 ft Gusta ( due to its mass and low C-G ) being anywhere near uncomfortable in the Porto anchorage vid .
We certainly were not despite the vid . As was every one else gently bobbing about rocking off to sleep .
I still see tall toppy boats s without stabs rolling longer than low ones if in this ^ example there was a difficult boat wake due to the place resembling Piccadiy circus at rush hr .like a typical SOF anchorage in August .Yes I get that the swing o meter ( scuse the pun ) moves towards stabs .
Wether it’s uncomfortable that’s subjective ,We might as well be discussing wine tasting on that one .Yes you can scientifically quantify taste bud receptors as you can your inner ear for balance sensory …….it’s all subjective .
You can’t tell someone that will taste awful as you cant say without stabs it will feel awful .Just because you taste / feel it that way .Or indeed any data , real science supports ……because it’s subjective always was and will be .
How ever it depends on the OP s .intended use and cruising grounds as well of course the pax s sea legs .That’s a given .
Stabs are desirable as is only drinking Petrus .But not absolutely needed in a every €600 K used boat .
Has it occurred to anyone that these low fast BIG boats we are talking about here , Leopards , Gusta s , Baia , AB s aren’ t stabilised because in essence they don’t need them .
We certainly were not despite the vid . As was every one else gently bobbing about rocking off to sleep .
I still see tall toppy boats s without stabs rolling longer than low ones if in this ^ example there was a difficult boat wake due to the place resembling Piccadiy circus at rush hr .like a typical SOF anchorage in August .Yes I get that the swing o meter ( scuse the pun ) moves towards stabs .
Wether it’s uncomfortable that’s subjective ,We might as well be discussing wine tasting on that one .Yes you can scientifically quantify taste bud receptors as you can your inner ear for balance sensory …….it’s all subjective .
You can’t tell someone that will taste awful as you cant say without stabs it will feel awful .Just because you taste / feel it that way .Or indeed any data , real science supports ……because it’s subjective always was and will be .
How ever it depends on the OP s .intended use and cruising grounds as well of course the pax s sea legs .That’s a given .
Stabs are desirable as is only drinking Petrus .But not absolutely needed in a every €600 K used boat .
Has it occurred to anyone that these low fast BIG boats we are talking about here , Leopards , Gusta s , Baia , AB s aren’ t stabilised because in essence they don’t need them .
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MapisM
Well-Known Member
No, it isn't.
It's 100% objective that the jerky motion of sportboats is less comfortable at anchor than the slow and gentle motion of heavier and taller boats.
What is instead highly subjective is the degree (and duration) of the boat motion tolerance, but that's an entirely different matter.
If yourself and your guests were happy with that anchorage in Portofino, good for you, but that's not even remotely a "merit" of your boat.
It's simply your own and your crew's tolerance of sea motion that you should thank.
In fact, more than likely someone else could have enjoyed the whole day onboard the sailboat moored nearby, but would have felt seasick after 10 mins on your boat. THIS is what is individual/subjective, not the effects on human body of the different types of motion.
And mind, I'm not saying this to support the idea that stabilizers are an absolute must.
I got used to cruise with a stabilized trawler since the end of '99, when stabilizers were almost unheard of, here in the asylum.
And when I moved to the current planing, unstabilized boat, one of the considerations was that retrofitting either a gyro or fins was feasible.
But already after the first season, I shelved the idea - and now, after five seasons, I'm still quite glad I did.
Do you know why? NOT because my boat doesn't need stabs - in fact, if you excuse my French, your suggestion that Leopards etc. don't need stabilizers is simply laughable. There's no such thing as a monohull boat whose comfort doesn't benefit massively from stabilizers, particularly at anchor - and if anything, that's even truer of sportboats.
The reason why I neither need nor want stabs is that these days, I don't even get out of bed for an anchorage like the one in your video.
For comparison, just check out this video, and you will understand why I wouldn't bother to turn the stabs on if I had them, in my typical anchorages.
BUT, talking of subjectivity, I can assure you that at least three out of the 11 guests I had onboard that day would have asked me to move somewhere else or to come back to port, if the boat would have moved as it did in your video.
So, on balance I would have probably retrofitted some kind of stabs, rather than embarass some of my best friends, or be unable to invite them.
I would, if it weren't that I'm lucky enough to cherry pick the best conditions and anchorages with no predefined commitments whatsoever, that is.
jfm
Well-Known Member
100% agreed.
As you say, the reason that the mangustas etc that we are talking about don't have stabilisers is not that they don't need them. It's that they hardly existed as option for these boats at the time they were built, 20 years ago, and no-one retrofits because it adds nothing to the value of these boats which is already incredibly low for the reasons discussed above. Now, in a world where stabilisers are widely available in all sorts of types and sizes, EVERY mangusta built has stabilisers.
Portofino
Well-Known Member
That vids got nothing to do with me or my boat .Not sure why you dive in so fast critical? For the record it fine at anchor thanks for your concern .Response seems a bit personal for some reason?
It was to outline conditions ( yet to be declared by the OP ) where blowing €150K on gyro stabilisation of a 60/80 T - Gusta 80ftr is not really necessary.
You haven’t added stabs to your 56 .As you show it’s hardly necessary as well if I understood what I saw in your vid ? Or have you added extra confusion to this should he or should he not add gyro(s) to a 80 ft Gusta ?
We were talking a 80 ft gusta anchored in conditions in both vids .Not sure they would notice anything.First vid as calm as I have in my library , but there are loadsa even calmer days where I boat , and the Porto one more Med typical . That motion was fine for everyone.Infact the sail boat got a few wobbles on .You know the mast pendulum effect so much so if you care to revisit the vid they called for that large tender as lunch needed holding down . Buts that’s beside the point you can’t see that in the vid .
So taking the human comfort thing out which is subjective , on deck in an open eyes easily on the horizon or never far off - think the lunch .
I have seen like for like tall FB boats ,toppy ones …..when a wash wave comes through the anchorage like the Porto vid , because the “ event last longer “ and the upper weight momentum is greater they spend more time holding down there plates + glasses than we do . Like for like . A lower flat sports boats settles down quicker …..the shorter event I indirectly referred to by calling out tall toppy boats may feel better ( subjective ) they roll slower but the rolling lasts longer in a wash example .
The feeling better by rolling slower , like wine tasting is subjective.
The 80 ft Gusta the subject boat the OP introduced its table contents never moves if it’s the third boat anchor for sake of argument in this 3 boat anchorage.
The longer event may subjectively feel more comfortable I am not denying that just adding top heavy boats rock about longer than lower flatter lower CoG boats .
Our hands in this example are off our plates and glasses quicker than the top heavy boats because ours has settled down faster There’s is still rocking necessitating a longer time hand holding table contents . = owners of toppy boats rush to stabiliser shop faster than the lower CoG sports boats .
If theses big low fast Gusta s / leopards Baia , AB s had anchorage stability problems in those two locations then folks would do this .With a €600 k budget buy a €400 K boat and retro fit stabilisation .But they don’t .
Sure todays buyers considering new low flat big sports boat in a £4million hull speccing a gyro system @ £200 K makes sense from the factory .It’s absorbed .Wether it actually gets used ( as villa owner day boat ) is debatable. I mean would you in both of those vids ?
If rocking at anchor is an issue caused by top heavy modern designs then sure add gyro stabilisation at build it’s easy and relatively cheap % to total of new . That’s rocking from a comfort pov ( subjective) and practical plates flying up on the fly bridge pov , more time spend holding down stuff then eating it .
Of course in Henry’s build thread of course we all can see the appeal of a gyro in that hull , in those described sea states he describes and that use age pattern .
These are tiny sports boats compared to a 80 ft Gusta .
Lack of gyro isn’t noticed .They spend weeks touring about.
1000 s tens of 1000 manage oblivious to the benefits of gyros @ anchor .
SageMaster
Active Member
Wow Thosa Italma ride smooth.
jfm
Well-Known Member
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MapisM
Well-Known Member
I guess the reason why you may perceive my comments as personal is that I know quite a few lovers of boats like yours, but none of them (including a couple of builders!) would even try to pretend that they are comfortable when static - let alone more comfortable than just about anything else afloat.
And I have a funny feeling that you know this as much as I do.
Then again, you are still insisting that between the fast and hectic rolling of sportboats and the slower and longer movements of heavier/taller boats, it's the former that is better, and/or that this is subjective, when it clearly isn't.
So, I can only assume you are talking out of bias, and I honestly don't see any point in debating further.
Let's just agree to disagree - by 180 degrees!
Portofino
Well-Known Member
No bias just reporting what I see tall , toppy FB s rolling longer having a longer” event “ when a wave passes through.I guess the reason why you may perceive my comments as personal is that I know quite a few lovers of boats like yours, but none of them (including a couple of builders!) would even try to pretend that they are comfortable when static - let alone more comfortable than just about anything else afloat.
And I have a funny feeling that you know this as much as I do.
Then again, you are still insisting that between the fast and hectic rolling of sportboats and the slower and longer boat movements of heavier/taller boats, it's the former that is better, and/or that this is subjective, when it clearly isn't.
So, I can only assume you are talking out of bias, and I honestly don't see any point in debating further.
Let's just agree to disagree - by 180 degrees!
Indeed tall masted sail boats despite Counterintuitively a keel !
You are saying everyone with a sports boat endures a boat that’s not comfortable at rest .
That can’t be true as they fly off the shelves wether 5 M cap camarants , ribs , 30 ftrs through many others upwards inc a gusta 80 !
But those families in those Itama ( could be any brand of sportsboat it’s just obviously easier and faster for me to access this particular manufacturers vids
) holidays, adventures and boating is not compromised by lack of gyros despite there tiny relative to Gusta 80 s size .I wished I just said in post #30; “ and longer the event “ and left it at that .I am not categorically saying which is better or worse .
Just pointing out a further difference. Slower means longer . More net time moving from the wash event .Holding down the FB table contents. More time stuff sliding about below as well .
99% or maybe theses days 97 % of boaters inc forum members and yourself manage without stabs , and Petrus