Man overboard - could your crew cope?

[Scotty_Tradewind]

Hi Chris, the only comment I can make to add to that, and not meant in a flippant way, is that you can also unintentionally be 'planning to fail'.

My fear is that many will be thinking that certain methods are a tenable method when in reality, in poor conditions, some of the attempted executing of these methods may in fact put all in danger.

The most important thing is that we are here discussing it and all who post here are keen to get it right.

It's of course, difficult to assess others experiences and abilities in these postings, but my guess is that many postees have not been in difficult situations in bad conditions when tasks which could risk MOB have to be performed. Otherwise they would all ready realise the difficulties that some methods tried in pondlike conditions would give.

We can imagine the rogue wave taking someone out of the cockpit when offshore if we have some experience of such sailing, but how many people can imagine it and how many have had much advice or instruction of how to cope in such conditions and take precautions just in case.
It's also not good enough to suppose seriously bad conditions wouldn't happen in places like The Solent.
On some days freak squalls are experienced in The Solent that can take many by surprise, even the most experienced can find themselves in an MOB situation. It is then that the MOB-Mayday routines must be well executed and these are far more important often than knowing how to get the MOB back onboard, because you probably wont be able to and others may be in danger attempting it with flayling booms, and gear that has blocks attached whipping about like a banshi.

If nothing else, I hope it makes us all give thought to it all...... again and again.

 

[ChrisE]

ah...i see. it's basically a block system as we have for our mainsheet. can someone explain how you would use the mainsheet system to get a MOB back in simple terms? which bits to attach / detach where?

thanks.

If put a snap shackle at the traveller end of the mainsheet block then you can detach the mainsheet and use the whole as a derrick with a pulley attachment. We have an extra long mainsheet that will allow the block to get down to the water although you could acheive the same by having a line from the snapshackle. The advantage of the long mainsheet is that you can use the snapshackle to attach to the MoB. Clearly, if it is rough you'd secure boom with something to stop is pitching around. This bit is very much boat dependant. We happen to have a pair of blocks on the rear port and starboard shroud chainplates to which we attach our preventers for downwind sailing, the lines coming from the rear of the boom, up to the blocks and back to our secondary winches. We can control the boom by playing the port and starboard preventers to move the boom from side to side.

As others have said all of this is fine but the mechanism is only as good as the effort you put into making sure it works. We initially tried all this hauling up the outboard then refined how to make it work from there.

 

[Channel Ribs]

ah...i see. it's basically a block system as we have for our mainsheet. can someone explain how you would use the mainsheet system to get a MOB back in simple terms? which bits to attach / detach where?

You detach the bottom block and then clip that onto the casualty's harness or lifting handle, then hoist away.

also are there any otherthe MOB drills i've done have all involved getting back to a fender - good for boat handling but not good at indicating how to get a person back on the boat.

We make a MOB dummy which weighs 90kg when being lifted out of the water, it has joints that flex in a similar way to legs and arms. It is very very hard to get aboard a sailing boat with high top sides, even harder to do it well.

 

[ChrisE]

Hi Chris, the only comment I can make to add to that, and not meant in a flippant way, is that you can also unintentionally be 'planning to fail'.

My fear is that many will be thinking that certain methods are a tenable method when in reality, in poor conditions, some of the attempted executing of these methods may in fact put all in danger.

The most important thing is that we are here discussing it and all who post here are keen to get it right.

I agree, you have to work it out for yourself, for your own style of craft and sailing.

 

[ninky]

You detach the bottom block and then clip that onto the casualty's harness or lifting handle, then hoist away.

.

thanks. we have a horse rather than a traveller but that makes sense.

 

[srm]

MORE ADVICE AND TRAINING REQ'D ON HOW TO STAY ABOARD MORE RELEVANT!

OK - as a charter skipper running my own boat my watchkeeper always wore a safety harness - it was their badge of office - even on a flat calm sunny day inside the islands. We all did it when on watch. The reason was simple - there was always at least one person kitted up to work on the foredeck. This was before inflatable lifejackets were fashionable, so it was just a harness that was worn which is less bulky. We also sailed with hank on sails so foredeck work was a normal part of watchkeeping. No one else went forward without harness and tether.

More recently I skipper other people's charter boats but still insist that no one leaves the cockpit at sea without being tethered, and follow the same rule myself (the Elan 43 has a lack of handrails and outward sloping decks - I feel very vulnerable moving around its open decks, even when alongside). No one has ever objected, they accept that its the way its done on this boat. From my point of view as a commercial skipper I am responsible for these peoples safety and their enjoyment of the experience.

On the charter yachts, like most other yachts, the jack stays for the tethers ran along the side deck and we almost invariably used the weather deck if heeled.

Since attending Ian's funeral (went over the guard rail from his own boat wearing harness and tether and towed along under the quarter) my own boat's jackstays for securing tether are inboard on the coachroof. Not so easy to rig, you may even need two spans with a change over point near the mast, however with a short tether it is then impossible to go over the rail. Securing points on foredeck are positioned so the radius of tether reaches to guardrails or working areas, but as far as possible not beyond. I still need to make similar provision in the cockpit for bad weather offshore. You will probably have to modify standard kit to suit the dimensions of your own boat.

Hope these ideas help.

A quick footnote on using a safety harness to lift people - do your harnesses have crutch or thigh straps? and if so are they always fitted and secured? Just a thought.

 

[TamarMike]

We have high topsides, an IOR regs fine stern with a Monitor that can be used as steps if the weather is calm.

OK I give up ....... what's a monitor?

(Yes I've tried Google but the only nautical references I found
were for an autohelm monitor and a small ironclad with one or two heavy guns)

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

Since attending Ian's funeral (went over the guard rail from his own boat wearing harness and tether and towed along under the quarter)
...........................................................................................................
Many thanks for sharing this information with us srm, I can only imagine how difficult a story it is for you to tell.

I reckon the jackstays inboard are an excellent system but on some boats not so easy to fit... but, if Ian had them and was attached...well he would probably be here to say how good they were.
If one life were to be saved from your posting, all thisdiscussion will have been very worthwhile.
..............................................................................................................
How do you reckon is the best way to get from cockpit to inboard jackstay if the space is a long one to get between? Would you hitch on to the side jackstays with a very short lifeline as on my 3 way so that you could then get out on all fours to then get attached to the inboards, or what?

ta
S.

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

OK I give up ....... what's a monitor?

(Yes I've tried Google but the only nautical references I found
were for an autohelm monitor and a small ironclad with one or two heavy guns)

Monitor is a type of windvane..... one of the best.
http://www.selfsteer.com/index.php

 

[AliM]

ChrisE - I wasn't criticising your approach, just urging you to try it in practice, and it sounds as if you have. We tried it on our boat, and the 4 to1 purchase was insufficient, we were pulling upwards (which is less efficient) and we couldn't lead the tail to a winch sensibly. On your boat it may work. No, I don't have a better idea, except the recurring theme of these posts : don't fall in!

 

[ChrisE]

ChrisE - I wasn't criticising your approach, just urging you to try it in practice, and it sounds as if you have. We tried it on our boat, and the 4 to1 purchase was insufficient, we were pulling upwards (which is less efficient) and we couldn't lead the tail to a winch sensibly. On your boat it may work. No, I don't have a better idea, except the recurring theme of these posts : don't fall in!

Couldn't agree more re the practice bit, I proposed throwing MrsE-in-law off the boat in a F10 to try it out for real but strangely the idea didn't go down well.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

All the methods of slings, pulleys from booms etc... possibly all worth trying in calm conditions, some with practice may even work after a fashion and possibly a long time if crew are not well rehearsed and the gear not readily fixed up and available.

I don't have a better idea of retrieving the MOB.... less than that, IN BAD CONDITIONS AND ESPECIALLY AT NIGHT, don't bother with these methods in the first place, as you are probably endangering those onboard in trying it.

Better to use Mayday, flashing EPIRB thrown at MOB, lifebelt +danbuoy, get the vessel in the vacinity of the MOB and.... pray if you have a God!

Miraculous intervention aside I would use these systems rather than wait for divine intercession or a helicopter. You can of course rig a preventer up to prevent the boom swinging or tie it off against the shrouds. Waves can both help and hinder to get the casualty attached and inboard. Night time is less of an issue once you have the casualty along side.

Mid Atlantic F2-3 big swell, hot, bored crew, some ones birthday - average age 23 (this explains the less than mature approach of it all). Birthday boy was put into the bosuns chair, which was attached to the end of the boom on a line led through a snatch block, line along boom to kicker / boom attachment, through another snatch block, down to the genoa fairlead and onto a sheet winch. Boom swung out with birthday boy attached, gybe preventer on, mainsheet tightened up, doush line eased of and birthday boy lowered into ogin. A thoroughly good doush later, birthday boy wound back to boom, gybe preventer eased, main sheet pulled in, birthday boy grinning like a cheshire cat. Repeat for rest of crew.

More seriously, at all times this rig up was in control (kicker, topping lift, main sheet and gybe preventer) and very easy to use. I remember thinking that this would be a neat way of getting someone back in if they fell over board. Of course the bosuns chair would be replaced by whatever way you secured the person to a lifting point and a mid boom lifting point would be better as well; a strop perhaps that you can wrap round the boom and tie on a snatch block.

The vessel was 38 foot, so we had big sheet winches, but on a smaller vessel, you could rig up a purchase to pull the casualty raising line with the sheet winch.

Food for thought!

Post posting edit - Well done Breath of Spring on your actions and I have not prepared any of my regular crew on how to get me back in! Another one for my list of things to do based on YBW fora.

 

[npf1]

Has anybody used or had experience of a JonBuoy Recovery Module http://www.oceansafety.com/catalogue/leisure/60 ?

 

[srm]

How do you reckon is the best way to get from cockpit to inboard jackstay if the space is a long one to get between? Would you hitch on to the side jackstays with a very short lifeline as on my 3 way so that you could then get out on all fours to then get attached to the inboards, or what?

ta
S.

This is a problem area on most boats with spray hoods, with a few possible answers. Yours will certainly work, if a bit uncomfortable. One I have seen on a couple of boats was substantial fore and aft hand rails on the outside of the hood, so no need for all fours (the spray hood frames had been designed for the extra load). Another method may be to fit a short jackstay from the side or top of the cockpit coaming to coachroof. Two tethers make changing over a lot safer.

There has to be some sort of assessment when moving around - in reasonable conditions I will step round using hand holds if there, if not or bad sea conditions I will be hooked on as you suggested. On the Elan I always clipped on and crouched, it was a long way past the spray hood - those sloping decks seemed to keep tripping me up. Last time I took a party out on the boat I noticed someone had rigged rope handrails to help get past the spray hood so its not just me.

Fitting inboard jackstays requires more thought, and a bit more hardware, than running them along the side decks. It was fairly easy on my catamaran, and being a Prout the shrouds were at the forward end of the cockpit so I clipped on to these while stepping around the fixed spray hood.

Its probably old age but I am getting to the stage where I like fairly high level hand holds and a tether. My latest boat had a deck saloon so the high level hand holds are there up to the aft shrouds (and the cabin top is the right height to be a good workbench in harbour). To be honest I have still to fully resolve the jack stay issue, but have only done 1050 miles, mainly the delivery from Plymouth to Orkney, which has given me time to see how the boat will be worked.

While on the subject of staying on board here's another simple idea I used on two boats for protection when working at the mast. Ratlines on the shrouds, just two or three spaced at comfortable climbing distance above the top guardrail. They were primarily there to catch anyone who fell off the coachroof by the mast, but were very usefull for climbing on and off piers. (Its just that on my first offshore passage I did just that, fell from the mast base when going to windward in serious conditions and managed to grab the shrouds with my feet at guardrail height). Come to think of it harnesses were in their infancy then, (about '69 or '70) on one boat I turned up with a heavy belt and spliced rope tether to tie on wherever - the skipper thought it a very good idea.

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

More seriously, at all times this rig up was in control (kicker, topping lift, main sheet and gybe preventer) and very easy to use. I remember thinking that this would be a neat way of getting someone back in if they fell over board. Of course the bosuns chair would be replaced by whatever way you secured the person to a lifting point and a mid boom lifting point would be better as well; a strop perhaps that you can wrap round the boom and tie on a snatch block.

Food for thought!

A lovely tale B. O. B.

As far as I can make out this was probably set up in a calm manner with plenty of time and forethought, with no panic, without having to go about, drop sail in a hurry, make a Mayday, find the bosuns chair in a hurry, set up the preventer, get the block and tackle required set up in a panic etc... still trying to locate and come alongside an MOB.

It's very pleasing to know of all the possibilities and ideas people have.... let's hope this blog keep going forever with ideas and advice...... if only to make us all think.
S.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

A lovely tale B. O. B.

As far as I can make out this was probably set up in a calm manner with plenty of time and forethought, with no panic, without having to go about, drop sail in a hurry, make a Mayday, find the bosuns chair in a hurry, set up the preventer, get the block and tackle required set up in a panic etc... still trying to locate and come alongside an MOB.

It's very pleasing to know of all the possibilities and ideas people have.... let's hope this blog keep going forever with ideas and advice...... if only to make us all think.
S.

Yes it was and I have used this method to lift some big stuff onto the boat. I am confident that I could rig this up in bad weather as its all standard equipment and normal controls for the boom. I have never shown my wife how to do this - which is my big lesson for action from this discussion.

 

[srm]

Waves can both help and hinder to get the casualty attached and inboard.

Reminds me of a time off Start Point (Devon, not Orkney) when a drift dive went wrong and we finished up in the tide race. Fishing boat the club had chartered came to pick us up - being a novice diver I got on the lee side and the fishing boat was setting down on top of me. It rolled towards me, I grabed the rail to prevent myself being pushed under the hull, and was picked up as the boat rolled back. I sort of remember sliding over the rail and finding myself pinned to the deck by air cylinder and weights, with someone asking how I got there.

 

[FulmarJeddo]

Wow, I didn't expect to provoke this amount of discussion when I posted this yesterday.

As my MG Spring 25 has twin main sheets attached either side of the companionway, I carry a block and tackle with the intention of attaching it to the end of the boom in a MOB situation. Only snag, I have never set it up completely so its ready for use. I must do it and at least try and see if it would be possible to lift someone from the water.

I have obviously thought long and hard since witnessing this last Friday. This all happened in sight of Whitstable Lifeboat house, but on a week day with a strong wind blowing, so virtually no boats around and it would seem no one other than me looking out to see. One of the big issues was lack of communications from the boat in trouble, one short radio message, on low power that unless she he heard the comms between me and the Coast Guard had no confirmation of anyone picking it up. This is where DSC comes in to it's own. A push of the red button even without setting the type of emergency or any voice message would have sent an alert and position out.

Probably easy in hind sight, and all dependant on the condition and agility of the Mob, but this boat had an inflatable dinghy behind. If a line could have been attached to the casualty and secured near the stern, his life line could have been cut and he would have stood more chance of climbing in the dinghy or even using the stern ladder. As I said, easy in hind site but with the boat bouncing around, probably difficult to think logically.

It's great that this has got so many people thinking about mob recovery, as Scotty_twister said already, let hope this goes on with more ideas coming up.

David

 

[blackdogsailing]

Apologies if this has been mentioned allready and I have missed it, but what about launching the liferaft if you have one ? ( Never done it or heard it done, just throwing an idea about ). Gives the mob something to hold onto, and perhaps climb into giving the crew more time to prepare etc.

Chris

 

[crewman]

Man overboard real life

In the Port Edgar YC magazine there is an article about a real life Man overboard during a race in an F5. Useful read. It can be found at www.peyc.org.uk then download the September Beamer. For some reason cannot get a link to work - my incompetence. It was in a fully crewed boat (X332 ). Even with a full crew there were still problems in the recovery.