MAN 800 engines....

[Sticky Fingers]

Been looking at this:
https://www.jdyachts.com/brokerage/boats-for-sale/boat/1516-sunseeker-portofino-53

Wifey likey (although the crane on the platform bothers me). It's a biggun but has great space below, three cabins. Vaguely affordable if I sell one of the children.

Has MAN CRM800 engines and shafts, I think these engines are 12.4L inline 6 so should have plenty of power but don't know much about MAN. Reliability? Common faults? What is engineering, service spares and support for MAN engines like in the UK, south coast / Solent?

MAN Say, "MAN engines excel through their high power development even in the low speed range - with an extremely low fuel consumption". OK so extremely low is all relative but what's the reality...?

Comments and rants welcome

 

[MapisM]

I think these engines are 12.4L inline 6 so should have plenty of power

They are actually 12.8L, but I'm missing your logic a bit.
My engines are also MAN, but based on a 14.6L V8 block, and their max output is exactly the same.
I mean, regardless of the block and whether you consider 800hp plenty or not, 800hp are always... erm... 800hp.

Anyway, the CRM800 engines (AKA "R6") are the evolution of the 700hp version that Portofino has in his boat, so maybe he can tell you something more specific about them.
Afaik, the main differences between them are the common rail introduction and the max rpm raised to 2300, from the 2200 of the original inline 6 design - as opposed to MAN V engines, which have been rated at 2300 for ages.

Re fuel burn, I believe it's reasonable to expect a ballpark range somewhere between 6 and 7 litres/Nm, on that boat.
Whether it's appropriate to call that "extremely low" or not, well, I'm afraid that the only possible answer is it depends...

 

[mcanderson]

Scala, you might want to PM DAW. He has had two P53s and I think his latest has MAN engines.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Hi mcanderson, thanks I'll do that.

 

[Portofino]

PAN has them too in his Hat 50 .

They are a derivative of the venerable D28 series line the 6 cylinder versions .
Modular is design they share moving parts with the V 8 and V 12 ,s except the cranks .
The block is found on lorries , buses , coaches and even rail cars .
MapisM is correct we have the 700 ,s electronic but just before CR .

Ours are 12.8 L with a longer stroke .Theres a sensible mean piston speed with none titanium rodded engines and seeing the 2876 pistons have to travel 76 mm , more than most our max rpm is only 2150 ish .More of s lower down push to the left of the torque curve to basically suit diesel rail units .

No issue in the marinised vs as gear box and prop pitch are pick n mixed to suit the torque delivery.

The R 6 is actually another generation with different liners reducing the stroke and swept vol irrc to just over 12 L .It ( within the max safe mean piston speed ) can indeed achieve 2300 rpm .
Actually at sea trails you need to see a tad over , if it’s correctly propped .

You don’t hear much on here or see anything online because in my experience the D28/ R 6 are bombproof.
The cathodic protection system is a genius master stroke of engineering.
They have a central massive anode hanging off the transom connected to the engines by a “ lightening conductor “ rod .There basically minimal dissimilar metals of the sea water in contact components .Thats expensive engineering btw .They I think are electrically isolated from any other electrical system .
No messing or inadvertently forgetting or stressing over pencil anodes or getting involved with fresh water rinsing malarkey.

Down side .
Sensors - there plenty , again the forums got folks fitting , coolant pressure gauges to monitor impeller health , EGT s to monitor overloading to name a few MAN s have many others inc L/ Hr and crucially load .
Its said they are expensive and sometimes go , in 4 5 seasons runs none of mine have gone and I have sourced the danfoss supplier in the U.K. as it happens but not yet needed them .
Factory book recommendations are for a cooler strip down and clean every two years .
Only the most fastidious carry on with that once out of warranty it’s labour consuming and a bit parts toppy as there are many gaskets to renew .

American professionals ( sport fishers ) whine at the expense over this .
It’s not really DIY able imho or worth subbing out to a AN Other boat mechanic.So it’s a dealer job .Then on the other hand they praise the reliability and the ability to see the load as they run them ( for what ever reason ) at 80 % all day blasting to and from fishing grounds racking up 1000 s , of uneventful hrs .

Our temps have not changed , not rising so I don’t feel under any pressure .

The rest is DIY er able .
I do ( with the help of a mate ) the annual service, filters , oil that’s it .
Parts are ball park from dealers and people like “On line filters “.
I tend to stick with OEM .
Air filters ( EREN did a thread recently) can last a few years are £70-90 a pop but last summer in a shop I saw then ticked at €50 , so snapped a couple up .
One massive belt on nice alloy pulleys that as mentioned is nicely engineered so unlike VP does not rust and give rise “black belt disease “ - hence the clean ER pics on the brokers site .Thats an inspection and adjust and replace if only cracked item . 5 years in i,am still waiting to see any wear to prompt a change .
Impellers get inspected too .We carry spares .

I have a spare belt on board , £90 iirc each , but serious money = serious quality.
Take a peak when you visit to get the feel of the engineering.

The sumps hold 32 L each.They have fitted manual pumps to ease oil changes .
If I had to be critical the oil filter housings are messy to open up being horizontal as opposed to vertical like on the V,s variants .

When you are in there the place to examine ( use your phone - pics + flash ) is actually at the back and above the oil filter canister housing .
If there is a gasket failure - weep its all ways there.
Parts a few hundred or about €1000 if it’s the larger intermediate plate .
Labour is two guys for two days as basically the coolers , header tank , and exhaust manifolds with turbos need to come off .

Those Boening LCD screen the 6,3 version are like raymarine E whatever’s they fail .Broker says they were replaced in 2017 - sit down if you google the price !
It’s not a water ingress issue they just go .
Mine are the preceding version and no reports of premature failures .

But because the engines are so reliable I can honestly say looking at the broker ad , and drawing up a list of £££ draining stuff on that boat from 1 to 100 the engines will be at the bottom such is there reliability.

I think you are looking at that boat through the wrong end of a telescope .
Here’s my list well the top few .

1- jet ski
2- Sealand vac flush bogs
3 That crane - water ingress through that bathing platform seal , it’s damp under there at the best of times .
4 Hard top electro hydraulic mechanism .
5 ice maker .

The above will burn more £ than any unplanned engine bills / repairs even annual routine services of consumables?

I spend about irrc less than €1000 to service my pair .Thats it .
I have not got ( deliberately) those 4 items on my €$£ money pit list .

Fuel burn .
Figure on 80 to 95 L /h per side planing .
D speed twenty something L / H @ 9 knots .

Prop semi tunnels tend to reduce stern lift , kill it .
They use them to reduce shaft angles that’s why it’s not got V drive gear boxes .
So I suspect at low planning speeds say in the range of 19- 23 knots the loss of dynamic lift due to the lowish speeds and the extra Kg s hanging in the worst place off the stern it will ride bow high , higher than normal .
Once over a certain speed the dynamic lift will take over and the bow will come down without a great deal of tab .
It’s designed for high twenties running and will be better suited .
Try it at 22 knots and see ?
Your problem if you accept poor Fwds visibility , it’s got a standing step btw to get more height at the helm ( always a bad sign in my book - another thread )
Is dividing the hull into 10 sections or stations , 1 the transom 10 the point on the bow , riding bow high means in a chop you hit the water at station 5/6 as opposed to 7/8 which will be finer and more wave slicing .
So in a chop ( relative to its hull ) it may be what I call a “ All or nothing “ boat .
Either D speed or north of 25/26 knots ,ie no in between.
That’s my observation
Interesting to hear DAW take on this ?

Looking under the cooler and exhaust- yellow arrows for hidden weeps.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

They are actually 12.8L, but I'm missing your logic a bit.
My engines are also MAN, but based on a 14.6L V8 block, and their max output is exactly the same.
I mean, regardless of the block and whether you consider 800hp plenty or not, 800hp are always... erm... 800hp.

Anyway, the CRM800 engines (AKA "R6") are the evolution of the 700hp version that Portofino has in his boat, so maybe he can tell you something more specific about them.
Afaik, the main differences between them are the common rail introduction and the max rpm raised to 2300, from the 2200 of the original inline 6 design - as opposed to MAN V engines, which have been rated at 2300 for ages.

Re fuel burn, I believe it's reasonable to expect a ballpark range somewhere between 6 and 7 litres/Nm, on that boat.
Whether it's appropriate to call that "extremely low" or not, well, I'm afraid that the only possible answer is it depends...

Thanks ... by "plenty of power" I meant that 1600HP in a 53'er should be ample.

Reason I asked the Q is to try and build up a better background of knowledge / views. There's loads of info and opinion on here (good and bad) about the ubiquitous Volvos with and without IPS, but MAN, Cat, Detroit or whatever seem much less well represented in the UK market anyway. So that opens the question of why, and is there a consequence of limited spares or service capability.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Have PM'd DAW.

@Portofino, thank you, very useful. And reassuring.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

So I suspect at low planning speeds say in the range of 19- 23 knots the loss of dynamic lift due to the lowish speeds and the extra Kg s hanging in the worst place off the stern it will ride bow high , higher than normal.

So, on that point - I'm never ever going to use a Jet Ski, trust me.

So, permanent removal of the crane and making good, and the Jet Ski from the swim platform and selling it, will help to the tune of 100's of Kgs of weight, improving lift at the stern at low planing speeds, and sticking a few random £££ back in the kitty.

 

[Portofino]

@Portofino, thank you, very useful. And reassuring.

PME group are the U.K. MAN folks , I’ve had consumables posted from them , efficient .
No surprise they have units in Poole and Plymouth .
So,s as I said I suspect most U.K. MAN boats are looked after by them out side DIY ers .

The “ joker “ sites 16 M L theses boats are massive you are looking at 18 M + the jet ski .
I thought I d mentioned this as on the other thread you inferred 14 M ish was optimal quoting berthing availability and obviously there’s on going cost issues for a boat between 18 and 19 M .
Thinking jobsworth marina manager waiting for you to leave the car park then running down the pontoon with a tape measure .Your phone will ping will a ‘ new revised price “ before yo get home on the first day

Plenty powerful enough as the MAN s were an expensive and very desirable option when new , std being CAT C12 or VP D12 about -715,s
Don’t get a CAT one .I,am passing on advise given to us from a S/Skr dealer when we prospected .Intercooler and exhaust manifold problems as they age .

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Spec on advert says 16.1m. Ideally I'd want to be under that say 14-15, so if it's actually even longer it's probably a non starter.

 

[Portofino]

So, on that point - I'm never ever going to use a Jet Ski, trust me.

So, permanent removal of the crane and making good, and the Jet Ski from the swim platform and selling it, will help to the tune of 100's of Kgs of weight, improving lift at the stern at low planing speeds, and sticking a few random £££ back in the kitty.

Wise move .

I was wondering about the hassle involved in a simple tender launch after anchoring on a buoy for lunch .
Having to shift the J ski to get the tender out

Just put a round plug of teak or something in the hole .

 

[MapisM]

MapisM is correct we have the 700 ,s electronic but just before CR

Ours are 12.8 L with a longer stroke .Theres a sensible mean piston speed with none titanium rodded engines and seeing the 2876 pistons have to travel 76 mm , more than most our max rpm is only 2150 ish .More of s lower down push to the left of the torque curve to basically suit diesel rail units .

It seems that I was actually correct in saying that also the CR version has the same bore/stroke/displacement as yours.
I just checked the specs sheet, and indeed they just increased the rated speed on the very same block.
Unsurprisingly I must say, since changing the stroke of an engine is a big deal.
Afaik, they only did that some years ago with the V8 and V12 (the V10 having been already dismissed by then), because they wanted to squeeze more than the 900 and 1360hp respectively which they reached with the previous shorter stroke blocks.

Btw, if you look at this MAN webpage, interestingly you can see that even for their current inline 6 they specify 128/166 for bore/stroke, and at the same time they mention 12.4L insted of 12.8 for the displacement...
Let's just hope that in their technical dept there is someone more familiar with mathematics than in marketing! :ambivalence:

 

[Portofino]

Spec on advert says 16.1m. Ideally I'd want to be under that say 14-15, so if it's actually even longer it's probably a non starter.

I would arrange a viewing if not only to mentally dismiss 18+ M .We did .Mrs Porto poo poo ed the massive ness of them .
But there’s the S/Skr dealer in our marina .
We ended up liking the size of the Porto 46 .Open for us not an issue in the Med , shafts but VP 74 ,s and I wanted to move away from the whole VP set up .Could not find a Yanmar 500 version .Aside the 46 ,s are steady not really fast 22/23 knot boats , that’s enough though .

They do a Porto 47 HT on shafts and IPS .Shaft D9 , IPS D6 . The IPS will be aged by now and they slam hull wise over 24 knots .
Tend to ride bow high , water hits station 5 too often .
A D9 on shafts could be ok mech wise ,but Sunnys again you are looking at 15 M a few inches short of 50 ft total tape measure L

I,d go and have a few viewings and sit on some aa said just to eliminate.

 

[Portofino]

It seems that I was actually correct in saying that also the CR version has the same bore/stroke/displacement as yours.
I just checked the specs sheet, and indeed they just increased the rated speed on the very same block.
Unsurprisingly I must say, since changing the stroke of an engine is a big deal.
Afaik, they only did that some years ago with the V8 and V12 (the V10 having been already dismissed by then), because they wanted to squeeze more than the 900 and 1360hp respectively which they reached with the previous shorter stroke blocks.

Btw, if you look at this MAN webpage, interestingly you can see that even for their current inline 6 they specify 128/166 for bore/stroke, and at the same time they mention 12.4L insted of 12.8 for the displacement...
Let's just hope that in their technical dept there is someone more familiar with mathematics than in marketing! :ambivalence:

Hay what are you doing the bore is 126 not 128 in the link .
Mines 128/ 176 , that link is 126/ 166

Changed the bores , rods , pistons , cranks .
Kept the block and heads .

We all have brain farts

Germans don’t make technical errors
Italians well let’s not go there

 

[mcanderson]

Spec on advert says 16.1m. Ideally I'd want to be under that say 14-15, so if it's actually even longer it's probably a non starter.

In our port they will not allow the SsP53 on a 16 m berth. Then again they do work to rule on length measurements. Ask your port office what tolerances they will allow. You might be in luck.

Have a look at the Sunseeker broakerage page as they have a few P53s on offer. The Ss broker in our port loves the P53 as he can always sell them. This way you can see what the market price point is, or at least get a feel.

This one is in our port (Beaulieu Sur Mer) https://www.sunseekerfrance.com/en-GB/preowned/vanusa-portofino-53/

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Cheers folks that's all useful (esp the tip about the length).

I'll do all of that over the next weeks. Down on S Coast again in a week or two.

 

[Den100]

Cheers folks that's all useful (esp teh tip about the length).

I'll do all of that over the next weeks. Down on S Coast again in a week or two.

Hi I have a Pred 54 which is basically the next generation of the Porto 53 with the same Man engines have had her two seasons now and love it, the engines to date have been faultless parts and servicing around the solent is easy with local Man dealers. My previous boat had the previous generation Mans the same as Portos also had no issues with them over the ten years I had her. Any questions or if you wanted to take a look at mine, in lymington, just PM me.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Hi Den100, excellent, that's more encouragement on the MANs. I need to land the LOA question but if it looks doable I'll take you up on your offer - thank you!

BTW, are you on N pontoon at Lymington? We were there for a few days last year on O, opposite a Predator. Might have been you....?

 

[Portofino]

You are doing it the right way :encouragement:
MAN powered and decent hull , HT for U.K. weather ( normally ) the rest can fit in .
For 13/14 M
Da da ........ https://www.inautia.it/barca-27231030191552995310257100509745.html

They do a newer 46 as well as the 43 . Here https://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/category/type/Pershing/46

The compromise is trucking a 43/46 home - think a few weeks in the Med to start with and factor the £6 K in the project .
A French one or Liguria one unless you want to spend £4/ 5 K on fuel bringing one up from Rome ? .
La Rague near me is always lifting largish boats out to move up north .

 

[Den100]

No we are on F pontoon you can't miss mine its the only boat with a black hull! there are no other Predators in the marina so unless it was a visitor, could however have been a my old boat a Camargue 50HT which is just in from the marina entrance. I did look at a Porto 53 before buying the Pred and from memory the LOA was just under 57ft.