Making your way through dinghy races

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cdogg

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I have just had yet another discussion regarding the best way to make your way through a busy and fast dinghy race.

Situation: Sailing south on a down wind run through the West Kyles of Bute (36' yacht) approaching a very well attended dinghy race taking place back and forth across our track near Carry Point (approx 0.7nm wide at the No 46 red lateral buoy). With dinghies all over the place, it seemed impossible to plan a clear route through such a lively race, or to divert around them. The advice given by an experienced dinghy racer is "proceed on a steady course through the race and allow the dinghies, which are infinitely more manoeuvrable, to duck and dive around us".

Any opinions?
 
cdogg said:
"proceed on a steady course through the race and allow the dinghies, which are infinitely more manoeuvrable, to duck and dive around us".

Any opinions?
Click to expand...

Often the only option in Chichester Hbr, where there are numerous races. When their intentions are obvious I will always give way to them if depth allows; but never having been a dingy sailor, let alone a racing one, I usually find it impossible to predict their tactics........I will move to pass astern of them only to find that they choose just that moment to tack.

Understandably, the more inexperienced dingy sailors do not always appreciate the momentum and characteristics of a typical yacht
 
If they are carrying big asymetric kites it's worth knowing that a gust of wind will cause them to bear off 20-30 deg, without warning, its swim or fly. Quite difficult beasts to predict and quite scary when you're helming one. But you're right that in most cases its better to hold your course if you have to head through a crowded fleet. Watch out for boats on stbd who can not see you (if they are behind their sails)
They can alter course quickly but they can't head up, if they're reaching or sailing off the wind (easily)

The only annoying situation when there are yachts under sail is the huge wind shadow if they opt to sail over the top of you, so if you can duck below or behind it's appreciated.

I will be watching to see if yachts have their engine running or not and might expect them to alter course if they have, if they're sailing I expect them to know the IRPCS. I know as stand on vessel you're supposed to hold your course but sometimes we simply can't.

You are right to be cautious of the many beginners or also boats that may be simply struggling to stay upright, if that's the case they may have no idea you're there and not be in a position to take any action apart from capsize and swim!
 
In general, as somebody who now does a lot more dinghy racing than yacht sailing, the advice to hold a steady course and speed is good, when there are lots of dinghies in a small area. Colregs get very complicated with fifty boats.
If you can avoid going too close to the marks we are rounding that helps too.
But when it is only one or two dinghies, then colregs should be our guide.
Some exceptions to holding your course being the best option I can think of:
When you are going to go through the start line within 30 seconds either way of the start
When you find you are on the track every boat is going to use approaching or leaving a mark
When you find yourself on the same track as dinghies on a shy spinnaker reach.
Maybe when you are overtaking from directly astern.
When your course will take you between two boats which are obviously in close competition, perhaps.

In general, other traffic is part of the environment we race in. Avoiding conflict with that traffic is part of the game. I can do that reasonably well if the traffic is predictable.
Also, I can and will tack within 2 feet of an obstruction, whether it is a yacht or a lump of concrete. You should not generally be worried by dinghies coming close, but obviously you don't want them under your bow.
It is always possible that someone will capsize, so being prepared to stop is appreciated.
Sometimes speeding up a bit can give us both a bit more space and less hassle.

It's quite hard to formalise, but in general we get by.
 
Thanks for your comments, they largely bear out what I have done in the past. Although quite exciting to watch, I'll never be totally comfortable with the last minute close avoidance manoeuvres often made during races.
 
I think that tighnabruaich sailing school inhabit that part of the kyles in which case they may not be racing so normal collision rules apply with the added possibility that they may not really know what they are doing yet!

Be thankfull they do not play in the burnt isles.
 
If you think the dinghies are a problem wait till you get the midges.

They seem to breed the prototype attack at all cost ones in that neck of the woods.
 
here is a plan

going up wind I sometimes just ust stop and let the sails flog and let them sweep past me

standing in the cockpit holing onto the camera seems to get the message across

I will sometimes pretend to be in irons - and they therefore have to keep clear of me

going downwind I have a special joke captains hat and a glass of ribena which I quoff with aplombe

that usually makes then steer clear of me

but the others are right

generally the best thing is to just hold your course

and it is better to deal with the front of the fleet where the best sailors will be

it is the tail end johnnies who are incompetent and looking for some-one else to blame
 
dylanwinter said:
going up wind I sometimes just ust stop and let the sails flog and let them sweep past me

standing in the cockpit holing onto the camera seems to get the message across

I will sometimes pretend to be in irons - and they therefore have to keep clear of me

going downwind I have a special joke captains hat and a glass of ribena which I quoff with aplombe

that usually makes then steer clear of me

but the others are right

generally the best thing is to just hold your course

and it is better to deal with the front of the fleet where the best sailors will be

it is the tail end johnnies who are incompetent and looking for some-one else to blame
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I can't find the rule that gives rights to a boat in irons unless you are displaying two balls!
Under the racing rules, a boat that is going backwards by backing a sail has least rights of all!
 
Dinghy Fleets - Sailing Through

Hello

Looking at threads the only addition I would suggest adding is to slow down. For us on the Medway, taking a line at the edge of the fairway and next to moorings is also helpful to the fleets.

Aurai
 
cdogg said:
I have just had yet another discussion regarding the best way to make your way through a busy and fast dinghy race.

Situation: Sailing south on a down wind run through the West Kyles of Bute (36' yacht) approaching a very well attended dinghy race taking place back and forth across our track near Carry Point (approx 0.7nm wide at the No 46 red lateral buoy). With dinghies all over the place, it seemed impossible to plan a clear route through such a lively race, or to divert around them. The advice given by an experienced dinghy racer is "proceed on a steady course through the race and allow the dinghies, which are infinitely more manoeuvrable, to duck and dive around us".

Any opinions?
Click to expand...

Dunno about races but we entered (and exited next morning) Nieuwpoort in the middle of the recent International Laser championships. In the morning there were (literally) hundreds of Lasers tacking out in a channel 20 meters wide constrained by wooden piers with a cross tide.

We adopted the position of "vessel constrained by draught". I know how the ships masters off Bramble Bank feel now. Didn't have the day shape up. Did have the hand on the throttle ready for a crash stop.

My concern was more about the other yachts in the channel than the dinghies, it was pretty busy that day. Most yachts were just trying to maintain slow speed and act predictably (except for one - but there is always one).

I think if it had been hundreds of beginners I would have moored against a pile and just let the carnage happen around me. But as representatives of their respective countries most of them seemed capable of staying right side up so a stately progress at 2.5-3 knots worked out OK.
 
In Chichester Harbour there is now in place a Code of Conduct for Racers to avoid the conflicts in the past in the narrow channels with vessels unable to nav safely anywhere else. Fast Asymmetrics were a particular problem-they were perceived by many cruisers as testrone/adrenalin junkies.
Alas, HM has told me I cannot mount twin 50's in the forehatch:D

A fellow club member (thats TonyB, Vic!) uses a fender in a black plastic sack.
I too show a 'constrained' day mark, which is a metre or so length of black pvc drain pipe, hoisted to one of the spreaders=fore part of ship.
Has another use too when lowered- you can park a boathook shaft in it, rather than putting it down on deck or coach roof.:cool:
 
Tidewaiter2 said:
In Chichester Harbour there is now in place a Code of Conduct for Racers to avoid the conflicts in the past in the narrow channels with vessels unable to nav safely anywhere else. Fast Asymmetrics were a particular problem-they were perceived by many cruisers as testrone/adrenalin junkies.
Alas, HM has told me I cannot mount twin 50's in the forehatch:D

A fellow club member (thats TonyB, Vic!) uses a fender in a black plastic sack.
I too show a 'constrained' day mark, which is a metre or so length of black pvc drain pipe, hoisted to one of the spreaders=fore part of ship.
Has another use too when lowered- you can park a boathook shaft in it, rather than putting it down on deck or coach roof.:cool:
Click to expand...

Compared to any decent asymmetric in a breeze, a cruiser is basically static. They are not going to be checking your rig for day signals, they will be looking for other fast boats, gusts etc. I haven't heard any good stories of one actually hitting a yacht.

Of course we enjoy the adrenaline, but when I race in Chichester Harbour Fed Week, I've found it worked rather well, even when we try to cheat the tide by cutting through the anchorage, we managed to persuade some bloke in a rubber dinghy to row a bit faster, he did surf a bit on our bow wave, but it was all in good humour.
The code of conduct AFAIK is as much to do with guidance for the people setting the courses.

Some yachties of course object to anyone else coming within fifty feet, perhaps that is the limit of their ability or something?
 
lw395 said:
Compared to any decent asymmetric in a breeze, a cruiser is basically static. They are not going to be checking your rig for day signals, they will be looking for other fast boats, gusts etc. I haven't heard any good stories of one actually hitting a yacht.

Of course we enjoy the adrenaline, but when I race in Chichester Harbour Fed Week, I've found it worked rather well, even when we try to cheat the tide by cutting through the anchorage, we managed to persuade some bloke in a rubber dinghy to row a bit faster, he did surf a bit on our bow wave, but it was all in good humour.
The code of conduct AFAIK is as much to do with guidance for the people setting the courses.

Some yachties of course object to anyone else coming within fifty feet, perhaps that is the limit of their ability or something?
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Fifty feet, no problem, but it's often the clear lack of 'what if' thinking by many dinghies/ keel boats in close quartering other larger vessels or such as that tender you refer to, and lack of ColRegs awareness thats worrying, particularly in Chi Hbr, where there is little commercial traffic to hammer the message home.

We both learnt to sail on the tidal Thames when it was heavy with commercial traffic, in both dinghies and RN whalers.
Colregs and 'What if' were basic survival tools from the start, even racing, and stood us in good stead in all our quite extensive dinghy cruising in Europe, again mixing it with commercials in all sorts of weather from the Irish Sea to Sweden.

The more you do, the different types of vessel you use, the more you realise what can go wrong, in an instant, and the more careful you are. 'There are old sailors and bold sailors, but no old bold sailors' sums it up really.
When you are confined to a defined channel, often narrow and shallow to you, perhaps lined with moorings both sides, all the care in the world cannot save you from an overconfidant/ or uncaring fellow water user who causes you to lose steerage way.
An Expensive crunch :eek:can follow, even if you can get fenders over in time.
 
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Tidewaiter2 said:
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The more you do, the different types of vessel you use, the more you realise what can go wrong, in an instant, and the more careful you are. 'There are old sailors and bold sailors, but no old bold sailors' sums it up really.
When you are confined to a defined channel, often narrow and shallow to you, perhaps lined with moorings both sides, all the care in the world cannot save you from an overconfidant/ or uncaring fellow water user who causes you to lose steerage way.
An Expensive crunch :eek:can follow, even if you can get fenders over in time.
Click to expand...

I've acquired a fair idea of what can go wrong in an asymmetric dinghy.
So far without damaging anyone else's boat.

The reason there are no old, bold sailors is because whatever your age, you are not really old if you can still sail at over 20knots. I have met a couple who sail an I14 fairly boldly despite both having bus passes. Actually the age profile of the trapeze classes is surprisingly high.
I tend to avoid Chi Harbour at weekends in season, maybe it's different then, but I would still probably hear about it if someone had a collision worth worrying about.
I think you possibly underestimate the consideration people are giving to you.
If they don't give you enough consideration, it is possibly because their goodwill has been eroded by the behaviour of the small percentage of Mobos (esp RIBs) in the harbour who don't care about their wash. Unfortunately a small percentage goes a long way when Chi Marina holds so many boats.

It's a bit like my view of Studland and Newtown, would be nice there, in a parallel world where boating wasn't popular!

The sailing is often much better at Shoreham, Arun or even in Langstone Hbr.
 
Sorry, but every dinghy sailor I know will have worked out for themselves that a yacht is by nature constrained by its draught. Hoisting a shape is right up there with a horse rider wearing the words "caution-horse" on a bib.

I do hope that by hoisting such a shape people are not absolving themselves of their responsibilities under IRPCS. I'd love to see that one on a claim form...and don't forget that many bigger dinghies have similar draught to a small yacht anyway. Don't all of us yachties hate seeing fishing cones as a permanent fixture in the rigging of fishing boats? Constrained by draught IMHO means the supertanker in the Thorn Channel...course deviation is not an option. I really doubt that dinghies are racing in narrow channels where a modest yacht could not short tack up it if needed...and if that the case then the race officer needs a wake up call.

As has been pointed out, a slow moving yacht is damned near stationary compared to another dinghy sending it downwind. WRT to the skiff thing, it's important people understand that a skiff heading downwind in the groove has VERY little room from for deviation from her course. Go up a bit and you'll be ragging the sails and in with a good chance of a leeward capsize possibly firing both the trapezing crew through the main. Bear away too much and the thing will basically stop and come over on top of you and you will end up under the main in the water, not a pleasant place to be. Most skiffs, if they end up in that "oh dear, that yacht is in totally the wrong place" will bear down on you, possibly alarmingly fast, and usually go to leeward of you right at the last moment. If there's plenty room and no gusts, they may squeeze above you. A good skiff crew will be steering the boat with a combination of heel control, sail trim and tiller inputs, they are incredibly responsive and a last second tweak is nothing to be worried about. Trust me, no skiff crew wants to hit 5 tons of fibreglass at 17 knots...that would hurt!

IMHO yachts can do the following to avoid the situation...

-As you approach a race area, try and work out where the course is. There will be at least a start line, a windward mark, and possibly a wing mark or other marks. They should be obvious, try and stay out the way. EG, windward marks are almost always taken to port, so try and keep to stbd if, for example you are following them up the beat.

-Look what is happening. If everyone is converging on the start line with ragging sails, the start is imminent, stay out the way.

-Cross their rhumb lines at right angles if possible...treat it like a shipping lane.

-Sail predictably. If a skiff is bearing down on you at speed, it will almost certainly have factored you into the plan. Don't drop the tiller over at the last moment.

-Be mindful of blind spots, especially under big asymmetrics. Nothing wrong with a shout if in doubt. If you shout someone's sail number (preceded by class if you know it) the crew will always be "tuned in" and poke their heads under the sail.

-Be mindful of your wind shadow, especially in light airs.

-Don't be afraid to stop. Or ask. If you are getting shouted at, there's a very high chance it's HOLD YOUR COURSE...just keep doing what you are doing, you've been factored into the plan.

-You probably don't know the racing rules of sailing. The dinghy sailor almost certainly won't know lights and shapes. If they do, they are a yachty. If they are a yachty, they won't be causing you a problem anyway.

-Factor in what percentage of your sailing time today is going to be spent negotiating this dinghy fleet, and just chill out, slow down if required and take things easy. In 5 mins youll be out the area and settling down to a relaxed 8 hour passage somewhere. Some of these dinghy types will have been up at 0500 to drive 150 miles to do this race which is the last one in a series that they have been competing in all summer...

There's an exact opposite for dinghy sailors, who don't know lots of the rules, shapes, have never been on a yacht or know that they don't just tack in 5 seconds flat, but if everyone can just be a bit more considerate everyone is happy. And moaning about PWCs in happy unison.:)
 
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