Making a ballasted centreboard...any views on carbon fibre and molten lead?

William_H

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Just to give you some ideas. My 21ft trailer sailer has a 100kg centre board vertical dropping. There is another 250kg lead under the floor. The total weight being around 950kg.
At 90 degrees of heel it exhibits 30kg up thrust at the hounds (not ast head) being fractioanl rigged. This is just enough to meet YA safety requirments for stability. keel lcked down of course.
The foil shaped keel was originally made by moulding 2 halfs to make the skin. Lead blocks were then fitted and epoxied in and halfs joined togher. The upper half of the boatd is wooden centred for strength.
At one stage I added 15kg of lead to the tip of the cb. I used the existing tip shape to make a fibreglass mould. I then removed this mould and moved it up (board upside down) by about 40 cms. I screwed some large screws into the CB tip for attachment. I drilled a hole in the mould and poured molten lead into the f/g mould. There was a huge amount of smoke and the f/g mold was singed but before it was destroyed the lead set. I removed the burnt f/g leaving a perfect shaped new cb tip. Actually I ground the lead down a bit and covered it with fibreglass and faired the whole thing off. The tip does get a bashing when i hit rocks etc but has been repairable with more f/g covering.
So if you were building a new ballasted c/b I would make a male mould out of plaster and or wood. The make a female mould of fibreglass and polyester resin. Then pour the molten lead in very carefully adding steel rods inside for strength. The lead would only extend a small distance from the tip so I would then fill the rest of the upper cb mould with foam. Remove the f/g mould (destructively) Then lay up carbon fibre and fibre glass over the core. Carbon fibre will be excellent for the sides of the cb but being stiff it will not bend so you need a twill weave glass to do the curved laeding edge and bottom. Skin should end up quite thick at about 3mm at least. You will nead reinforcing at the pivot area and lift wire attacment.
However for a dinghy perhaps just a little lead at the tip may help. What is really important is to make wide side decks and sealed self draining cockpit. Dinghies when capsizing generally lose their form stability as the water rushes into the hull. The other difficulty is that the crew tend to end up standing on the lower inside gunwhale so inadvertently forcing the capsize. A leaning out over the top gunwhale is the way the experts avoid capsize. Indeed a skilled crew can climb over the top gunwhale as she oes over such that they can right it again without getting wet. (quite a trick) I think you (OP) should get more capsize practice in. I know we have warmer water but always in teaching dinghy sailing to kids capsize drills came before sailing. Including righting from fully inverted. In fact one of my party tricks was to dive under and come up inside the inverted hull. Couldn't always get the kids to do it but it is a fun. A lovely blue light from the water.
anyway good luck with the dreaming over the winter olewill
 

blackbeard

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For what it's worth ...
a. Comet Trio dinghy has, ISTR, a foam filled mast with some of the halyards external. Capsize righting characteristics are good. Much more artistic than horrible floppy plastic things at the masthead.
b. Laser Stratos has a keel version with a dagger board weighted by a 70 kg lead bulb at is lowest point. This has a multi-part purchase to raise it and a strap to hold it down when under way. We haven't managed to capsize ours. Yet.

Both capacious and versatile boats, and reasonably quick (though, I assume, not as quick as an Osprey). Not sure about S/H prices, and having the job already done takes away most of the fun, perhaps.
 

lw395

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I guess you have thought through all this, but you'd need some serious weight added to the centreboard to make it worth putting it down whilst moored. Usual advice is to keep the board up when moored so that the boat just skids sideways instead of 'tripping' over the board.

Yes.
One way is a 56lb weight hung from a rope from each chain plate.
In the end we decided a gunter rig was the way.
Project got shelved.
 

lw395

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I don't know how long the board would be - or how deep (fore-aft direction) but I'm assuming something like 3' of unsupported metal poking out from the bottom of the boat, and maybe a foot deep? If so, I'd have thought a bit of 8mm mild steel would be fine for even quite a heavy crew standing on it! After all, the biggest bending moment will be whatever it takes to right the boat, rather than the weight of the person (whichever is least).

Not quite.
The resistance of the water means that whatever weight you put of the board will come into play, it might just right the boat faster.
Larks have metal centreboards, not sure of the thickness, 8 or 10mm would be a fair guess?
I've seen enough of those bent in my student days.
Fond memories of people who are now presumably the great and good of engineering, trying to straighten one by lying in on the ground and driving a ford capri back and forth over it.
 

Seajet

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Dan,

while winter dreaming is great and we all do it, it really comes down to - DO A CAPSIZE TEST ! this hopefully will reveal any snags with the boat buoyancy tanks and vastly reassure SWIMBO, otherwise capsizing becomes a real bogeyman fear.

The masthead buoyancy would be a good idea to try this with, and close to shore if only for feelings of safety for her and with luck a chance for a chum to photograph the event as a memento.
 

Kelpie

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Agree with Andy. We did a few capsizes in the Grad this summer, at first SWMBO was very nervous but she actually really enjoyed it in the end. The worst that happens is that you get a bit wet. Incredibly reassuring to realise that it's not the end of the world after all.
 

Neil_Y

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If you are trying to increase the righting moment so that it wont turn turtle in the event of a capsize, rather than climbing onto the centre board, then you need to also factor in you and your crew hanging on to the boat and being righted with the boat. The instinct for crew in the boat is to hang on and try and climb as the boat goes over, this accelerates the capsize unless you are quick and agile and climb over the side.

So you will still be faced with a boat on it's side where at least one person will have to climb on to the board to right the boat.

In any boat that can capsize you have to go and do it, it's nothing to be afraid.

If a J24 can fall over what ever you do will not prevent it in a boat like an osprey.
p9250059.jpg
 

dancrane

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Thanks for all these thoughts.

I'm not bothered much by my plastic bottles bouncing at the masthead. They don't obscure the flag and when the boat capsizes, they'll be worth twice their weight in platinum.

Important to remember my outlook, perhaps. SWMBO is irrelevant - like most SWMBOs, she'd rather I bought a RIB, and frankly her presence in the boat is more obstructive than helpful. And I don't care; I'm no longer trying to convert her. My passion for sailing predates/transcends almost everything I know, and will endure to my last hour (hopefully not in an upturned sailboat :rolleyes:). That's fine, but as I've also no real interest in racing either, I'm keen to escape from the customary mentality of two-man involvement in this boat's use.

I'm not at all keen to jack it in and buy a slower, more inherently stable boat, or a little singlehander with its singlemindedly competitive orientation. I like my big old boat, and my modifications (which on this most practical boat-owning forum, ought not to be railroaded by fixed notions of what any design was meant to do) are mainly about bringing a flighty two-hander under singlehanded control. In this ballast-related thread, I believe your many replies show the idea remains an interesting one, even if my motive is misunderstood.

I really won't care if my non-standard outlook necessarily halves the number of days I can sail the Osprey, or limits the performance available to me on those days...

...but accepting that capsize is ultimately inevitable, I return to the thought behind my basic question...my 70-75kg on the centreboard may be there for quite a while (particularly in non-calm conditions) before she pops up obligingly. I tend to believe that if the board itself weighed at least half that much, then the righting procedure (involving my additional avoirdupoir on the board's end) would be significantly faster and more decisive. I don't think that's in doubt, is it? Hence, lead in the keel (or a 7-stone Christmas binge for me :rolleyes:).
 
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...but accepting that capsize is ultimately inevitable, I return to the thought behind my basic question...my 70-75kg on the centreboard may be there for quite a while (particularly in non-calm conditions) before she pops up obligingly.

I understand where you're coming from with this but do you actually know how easily you can right the boat as it is?
I ask this as I learnt to sail in a laser (so got a lot of capsize practice). I also man the safety boat far too often and from this was led to believe that a wayfarer was difficult to right. That is until one weekend when I decided to race one with a friend in a pretty strong blow.
We hadn't reefed and eventually the inevitable happened and over she went. Despite my mere 59kg frame I manged to right the boat very quickly including scooping the crew in as I did so. Surprised me as I've seen much heavier people really struggle to do the same.
I'm convinced righting a dinghy is as more about technique than weight.
Something people really should practice.
My point is you might be going down a route that you really dont need to.
 

lw395

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I understand where you're coming from with this but do you actually know how easily you can right the boat as it is?
I ask this as I learnt to sail in a laser (so got a lot of capsize practice). I also man the safety boat far too often and from this was led to believe that a wayfarer was difficult to right. That is until one weekend when I decided to race one with a friend in a pretty strong blow.
We hadn't reefed and eventually the inevitable happened and over she went. Despite my mere 59kg frame I manged to right the boat very quickly including scooping the crew in as I did so. Surprised me as I've seen much heavier people really struggle to do the same.
I'm convinced righting a dinghy is as more about technique than weight.
Something people really should practice.
My point is you might be going down a route that you really dont need to.

Most of the older dinghies are quite easy to right.
The worst ones are those with too much buoyancy, as they tend to invert.
 

dancrane

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I understand where you're coming from with this but do you actually know how easily you can right the boat as it is? Not yet. I...was led to believe that a Wayfarer was difficult to right...Despite my mere 59kg frame I manged to right the boat very quickly including scooping the crew in as I did so. Surprised me as I've seen much heavier people really struggle to do the same. I'm convinced righting a dinghy is as more about technique than weight. My point is you might be going down a route that you really don't need to.

I'm full of envy and admiration for your ability, Dave. I've certainly spent frustratingly long periods on the centreboards of smaller boats than mine, vainly willing the thing upright.

I reckon quite a lot affects different classes' readiness to come up, plus conditions, and I don't think each real-world capsize situation is necessarily very similar to practice drills.

The ballasted centreboard isn't intrinsic to my sailing ambitions, it's just an idea which I suspect would significantly facilitate a speedy recovery in many instances...

...and knowing that it was there would encourage exploration of the 'risk-taking' fun-factor, which in many respects is the raison d'etre for fast dinghies, however they're used. :)
 
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lw395

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I'm full of envy and admiration for your ability, Dave. I've certainly spent frustratingly long periods on the centreboards of smaller boats than mine, vainly willing the thing upright.

I reckon quite a lot affects different classes' readiness to come up, plus conditions, and I don't think each real-world capsize situation is necessarily very similar to practice drills.

The ballasted centreboard isn't intrinsic to my sailing ambitions, it's just an idea which I suspect would significantly facilitate a speedy recovery in many instances...

...and knowing that it was there would encourage exploration of the 'risk-taking' fun-factor, which in many respects is the raison d'etre for fast dinghies, however they're used.

Get some righting lines!
Secured under the gunwhale at the shrouds.
clip them to the transom.
Even with the boat inverted you can stand on the opposite gunwhale and lean back holding the line.
With the boat on its side, you can stand on the root of the plate and lean back.

BTW there is a school of thought that dinghies should invert when left to their own devices, to avoid them blowing away if the crew all fall out.
 

flaming

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Interesting idea.

The thing I'd be worried about is not having enough weight to stop the capsize, but at the same time having just enough to lever it upright from 90 degrees once the crew has been ejected.

So if it went over in a gust and the crew fell in, if it then pops up and sets off downwind on it's own, you're in a whole world of trouble.

You may think this unlikley, but I've seen this happen with a topper! Crew fell out through a gybe and when headed DDW a topper is just stable enough not to flip, so it carried on. Without others around (me) to pick the crew up and chase the runaway boat for nearly 1/2 a mile before it eventually fell over the lad would have been in trouble!

So either ballast it properly to prevent a capsize, or think in terms of wanting it to stay on its side once it does.
 

Kelpie

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Frank Dye used to use a safety harness and clip into his Wayfarer. Memorably, his wife did likewise and this prevented her from being lost when she fell overboard, having fainted, caused by continuous seasickness. This was on a trip to St Kilda which was also their honeymoon.

I think SWMBOs used to be made of tougher stuff.

P.S. Dan- buy a drysuit. Then no need to scared of the water. Let the boat work as intended- light, fast, easy to beach.
 

dancrane

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Good thoughts, thanks.

Poor Margaret Dye...she must've wanted to live up to her new name, on her nauseating honeymoon trip. I can't help thinking a lifeline would be de trop on a dinghy as well as a real potential danger...the critical thing during capsize strikes me as not being tethered, assuming one hasn't also fainted!

Drysuit...lovely thought, but it must come behind a made-to-fit trapeze harness on my shopping list. My wetsuit still fits me (just!) and I can't ever remember feeling cold in it.

Not to dismiss Flaming's concern, but I can't easily picture an Osprey sailing away with nobody aboard, particularly in weather when capsize might be remotely likely...nor can I visualise falling out of the boat in lighter conditions. And I think we're agreed the fairly lightweight ballast I'm considering wouldn't have much righting effect when the boat is heeled at a normal angle...so very unlikely that it would, of itself, prevent capsize.

Righting lines...definitely part of my plan, thanks.

The crew in this clip uses the jib sheet. The lady doesn't half take her time, it's painful to watch. But I get the feeling the chap is standing on the bottom, not floating:

 
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Very poor demo of a capsize drill.
For a start the main sheet was still cleated in.
She didn't use the dagger board at all.
Upper body was still in the water so life jacket supporting some of her weight.
Had she uncleated the main, got her upper body out of the water then got on the dagger board as soon as it was low enough for he to do so. Then stood on tip of board and use the sheet to lean out it would have been up in 30 seconds.
 

Avocet

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Not quite.
The resistance of the water means that whatever weight you put of the board will come into play, it might just right the boat faster.
Larks have metal centreboards, not sure of the thickness, 8 or 10mm would be a fair guess?
I've seen enough of those bent in my student days.
Fond memories of people who are now presumably the great and good of engineering, trying to straighten one by lying in on the ground and driving a ford capri back and forth over it.

After I posted that, I thought "I wonder if someone will pull me up on the 'viscous' element"?!

Yes, OK, but I think I can stand by what I originally said - it's either be the bending moment created by the weight of the crewman stood on the end of the board OR whatever the righting moment is - whichever is least. Even allowing for the drag of whatever is moving though the water (which shouldn't be much if he's got his "pop bottles" tied to the masthead!) the most you can put on there is the weight of the chap standing on it. (Unless he finds a convenient diving platform to jump off on to it)!

I'm intrigued about the Capri bit though. How did the boards get bent in the first place? Was it just by people trying to right capsized boats or had they run aground or in some way put additional load on them? Seems odd that a crew member can put enough load on to bend it but a Capri can't? Was it supported differently with the car on it?
 

Avocet

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...but accepting that capsize is ultimately inevitable, I return to the thought behind my basic question...my 70-75kg on the centreboard may be there for quite a while (particularly in non-calm conditions) before she pops up obligingly. I tend to believe that if the board itself weighed at least half that much, then the righting procedure (involving my additional avoirdupoir on the board's end) would be significantly faster and more decisive. I don't think that's in doubt, is it? Hence, lead in the keel (or a 7-stone Christmas binge for me :rolleyes:).

I don't know how and Osprey would sit with the bottles on the top of the masthead, but I'm guessing something like a bit "beyond" 90- degrees, given that the boat is quite beamy and the masthead will be a "bit" below water level? If that's the case, you need to look at how far away the centre of gravity of the complete centreboard is from the centre of bouyancy. The top (say) third of the board will still be in the centre board casing and some of it might even be on the "wrong" side of the centre of buoyancy, so I'm not sure how much of that 75kg of centerboard will be contributing any significant righting moment - maybe only the bottom third? On the other hand, I guess that at least the additional weight of that board could make the boat sit a bit lower so it won't be as hard to get up out of the water and on to the board in the first place?
 

lw395

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....
I'm intrigued about the Capri bit though. How did the boards get bent in the first place? Was it just by people trying to right capsized boats or had they run aground or in some way put additional load on them? Seems odd that a crew member can put enough load on to bend it but a Capri can't? Was it supported differently with the car on it?

Never underestimate the ability of students to break things, or the lengths they will go to avoiding paying for the consequences.
I think, if you get the mast in the mud, the plate is not that hard to bend a bit.
The subtlety is not bending it back, but bending it just enough beyond straight so that it ends up straight, or at least straight enough to move freely in the case.
IIRC we packed it with bits of ply on a concrete floor.
I am sceptical of things like pop bottles, it might help for beginners practising in flat water, but once you get out in waves, it can take a lot to stop a boat inverting if it rolls in at speed.

TBH, if someone is not up to speed righting their boat, I wouldn't be encouraging them to go out where there is no safety boat.
 

dancrane

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I don't know how and Osprey would sit with the bottles on the top of the masthead, but I'm guessing something like a bit "beyond" 90- degrees, given that the boat is quite beamy and the masthead will be a "bit" below water level?

Not sure how high in the water her side-buoyancy will put her. But (I think I made it clear at the start, here) my initial plan was to fill only the lower half of a hollow casing, with lead. Assuming the board was more than half-lowered (I doubt I'd leave it up if there was any likelihood of capsize) I hope the lead would help, not hinder righting.

The unused weight of the upper 24" of a steel plate was one of the reasons why it wasn't my first choice.

I sailed a Lark one day, twenty years back. Didn't realise the plate was steel.

Osmium might be a useful alternative metal for localising the ballast weight, it's twice as heavy as lead! Unfortunately it's also about £8 per gram. :(
 
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