Major retrofit costs

[Tranona]

Thanks everyone! That helps!
Sounds like it could double the cost then, and I shall have to reevaluate more equipped boats.

It would have to go to the 40’s to make eastward intercontinental passages, but destinations would all be in the subtropics and northern Med, around the ARC routes and in favourable seasons. Northern Passage and such, not planned at all.
So, doesn’t need to be a custom boat.
The skipper shall be living aboard most of the time, and the owner also wants it to be a more comfortable boat than real expedition boats.

Pro considerations with these charter releases are also that they at least had professional crews, maintenance, and are not that old. Most of their equipment is still in production, and parts availability in remote places should be better, because they are ubiquitous production boats.

We looked at Garcia Expedition for another example, but that‘s difficult to get second hand, frankly too cramped for more than a couple, and not so well equipped for comfortable liveaboard compared to modern catamarans.
Their cat seems perfect, but would have to wait until 2027 to get one brand new.
Pricing seems rather high for what one gets, as well.

Really depends on what you mean by "expedition". If you are simply ocean cruising then you don't need half the stuff in your earlier post to make a success of it. If you want the comfort of a small land based apartment as you can with the volume of a cat then you become a slave to the technology. Most of the stuff you are talking about is made cottage industry level and even major boat builders have difficulty installing it properly so that it is reliable. It all looks seductive at boats shows and tied up in a marina, but becomes a nightmare when it stops working in out of the way places.

That is one aspect, The other, which a number of people have hinted at is whether a charter type cat an appropriate base to put several hundred k's of unreliable gear into. They are generally lightly built boats to suit their undemanding task of pottering around usually under motor while the clients relax. They are not serious ocean sailing boats. As you rightly say, they are professionally maintained which means that every week or 2 weeks the broken bits get fixed and in the off season they get a thorough overhaul to get ready for the next season. so in that respect they are good bets when bought at 5-7 years old BUT just at the point in life where the major replacements start building up.

Your last sentence is telling. This type of boat, properly built and equipped to the sort of level you are talking about cost a lot of money - but at least you have a fighting chance of getting something that works. The question is whether you can turn a basic charter boat into something similar quicker and for less money, recognising the limitations of the basic design.

 

[Brc45]

The question is whether you can turn a basic charter boat into something similar quicker and for less money, recognising the limitations of the basic design.

Thanks, quite right: that’s the purpose of my question, and reason for my being tasked with the whole matter.

By the way, averaging out the examples of materials/labour ratios you cited for various types of work, overall came out 64/36.
I understand that you were just guessing based on experience, but peculiar that labour still averaged out to be about 1/3 of total.
Naturally, only getting a real quote from a boat yard would indicate the actual magnitude.

Accepting that the total can double the cost of the bare boat, still seems worth doing, since we would get exactly the configuration desired and with warranties on the work that the already fitted second-hand boats won’t have.

That suggests my second question regarding the refit jurisdiction might be a significant savings factor. I was based in Asia quite a lot, where so much of all gear for everything is built nowadays. In the best shops there, the quality is par to the West or at most slightly less, but the labour cost is half or less.

Bringing the boat there might cost, but seems unlikely to exceed the labour cost savings on such extensive refit, especially if the boat were acquired in the region. For Caribbean acquisition, perhaps Central American yards, for Asian acquisition, several territories there come to mind.

Does anyone have experiences to share from refits in such places regarding cost-benefit aspects?

 

[Brc45]

We came up with another option under № 3 of the OP.
Please critique.

 

[penfold]

Warranty on the work; good luck with that, even the warranty on the equipment is often conditional on being in a european or US port for getting prompt support as the OEMs have limited franchises elsewhere. Manana is real, but it describes an undignified sense of urgency in some parts.

 

[alohrisch]

1. Professionally installed, what percentage of total retrofit cost shall be the installation labour and materials cost fom your experience?

Hi, I will have a go at answering question 1 only. Having done a lot of refit work replacing old fixtures and equipment (Australia for context) I have found it to be around 50% on average of the product upgrades value. Obviously it varies significantly, and Iabour is very expensive here so most of the time I have done the work myself. Some jobs are simple replacement but expensive parts so as low as 10% and there are some jobs which are really labour heavy vs the cost of parts so as high as say 1000%.

 

[Brc45]

Warranty on the work; good luck with that, even the warranty on the equipment is often conditional on being in a european or US port for getting prompt support as the OEMs have limited franchises elsewhere. Manana is real, but it describes an undignified sense of urgency in some parts.

Thanks! Makes sense!
As mentioned, the top contenders are common production boats from builders buying in bulk from major OEMs.
For expensive items I’ve priced so far, OEMs have distributors on every continent.
Where they shall honour the warranty is something to add to the checklist though.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Do bear in mind that any ex-charter boats are a lottery. They will have been used by skippers and crews of wildly varying abilities and the chances of them getting to the end of charter intact are slim, you really have to know what you are looking at. As already mentioned by Tranona .... they get quick repairs during the season as they have to be turned around for the next client in a few hours .... all the quick fixes and bodges done every Saturday morning have to be recorded and fixed properly at the end of the season, as well as any damage ... and then there are the bodges and deceptions carried out by the charter clients themselves ... I chartered a boat in Scotland where the bow wasn't quite right - turns out a russian crew had rammed a stone pier and tried to fix it themselves in order to carry on with their holiday, people bodge fuel sensors to give the boats back "full", jury rig fixes and bodge wiring/fusing ... they also break things. Often this is not reported to the charter company to avoid losing their deposit. I paid a deposit on a charter boat I was intending to buy but that got grounded on it's last season with major damage to the hull and internal grid ... the charter company diver hadn't spotted it and the boat was kept in charter all season - I have watched a 50ft charter boat in Greece reverse into a berth that was far to shallow, the boat stopped dead as the rudder made contact with the ground, the bow lifted out of the water far enough to see the bow thruster, and everyone on deck fell over ... this kind of abuse is quite normal for charter boats and in the years I've been in the med I've seen it all.

To mitigate this risk, get a very thorough survey of the boat by a trusted surveyor - and try and buy one that was in an ownership scheme with a fastidious owner who forced the charter company to keep on top of the required repairs - this does two things, it disuades the charter company chartering it to unqualified people as the risk of the owner sticking them for the repairs is high, and it ensures they take a bit more care of the boat generally. A boat owned by the charter company itself is a disposable asset that will be written off over time, and that will show in the level of care and maintenance.

As always, the best boat to buy from a condition and reliability perspective is a mid-life, privately owned boat from an owner with a money-no-object attitude to maintenance and repair. This is usually obvious as soon as you step on board - and run away from teak decks.

One other thing you can do is watch the videos here .... Parlay Revival .... I would definitely advise against doing what they did, but his journey repairing his boat shows all the typical issues you have with refitting cats.