Major retrofit costs

[Brc45]

Considering buying a bare boat coming out of commercial charter fleet, and having it extensively retrofitted to our spec by a large, well-known service and repair shop.
Couple of questions:

1. Professionally installed, what percentage of total retrofit cost shall be the installation labour and materials cost fom your experience?

2. Disregarding the cost of moving the boat there, where is the most cost-effective region of the world to have the retrofit done, particularly regarding least pilfering by local gangsterment in terms of various so called “taxes, duties, fees”, et cetera?

3. UPDATE: Another idea we’re brainstorming and evaluating is buying the best value bare boat in the region, sailing it to the nearest territory where the refit equipment would be most advantageous to buy, doing the most critical and difficult upgrades/repairs at the best yard there, then delivering the boat with all the less critical upgrade gear onboard to the nearest final delivery destination where it would be most cost-effective to have properly installed, or stored to be installed gradually.
What would be the pitfalls and critical consideration in this plan?

Cost of retrofit parts and equipment currently estimated about 1/3 the boat‘s asking price. (Such similarly outfitted second-hand boats are at least 100% more money than this boat’s asking price. Biggest negative/unknown with those is the dubious installation quality and subsequent wear and tear damage…)

 

[Tranona]

Too many questions - and impossible to give sensible answers.

What sort of boat, size, type? What sort of past use? What sort of future use? How are you defining "refit"? What sort of standard?

Charter boats that are any good as a basis are not "cheap", that is the discount compared with a private boat of same type and age is not large. The major advantage of buying an ex charter boat (in Europe at least) is that usually they can be bought VAT free IF not for use in the EU by EU residents. This is attractive to non EU residents. Charter boats in other locations may also enjoy tax advantages on purchase.

The boat you are looking at must have something seriously wrong if the price is 50% less than an equivalent (tax paid?) market price. You have to treat each boat individually and not kid yourself into trying to estimate %ages (of what?) or trying to figure out where you can game the system by moving the boat to a location with "cheap" labour (but maybe lousy parts availability).

Go through the boat with a fine tooth comb, identify what work is needed on the basic boat, then what you need to do to it for your intended future use. Cost that, add 30-50% contingency and see how the total compares with buying a ready to go boat of the same type.

From experience I would say what you propose is a mugs game. I owned a 37' charter boat and when I took it private I spent about £5000 (about 10% of its notional value at the time) on upgrades and replacements sufficient to sail it from Greece to the UK. I sold it 4 years later for roughly 10% lower than an equivalent private boat and the next owner spent a further £10k on a "refit" which included new sails ready to sail it back to the Med. His total cost was more than buying a similar boat , but he did all the work himself and he ended up with a boat exactly as he wanted it with little thought about what the market value at that point might be.

In many ways direct comparisons with other boats is meaningless when buying. The key reference points are. A boat you like: equipped and in a condition you want, located where you want to use it (or start your use). So using your example - will the difference in price cover the cost of bringing the cheaper one up to the standard of the more expensive one pay any taxes that are due and get both to where you want it.

Some general observations based on carrying out 2 major refits. First everything costs twice as much as you thought and takes twice as long. Once you start paying tradespeople you start to lose control of costs. The biggest job is project management. I estimate that even when paying people to do work, I spend as much time on such activities as specifying what I want, getting quotes, sourcing materials, co-ordinating suppliers etc as actual work on the boat. There is no such thing as a "bargain" in boats. If the boat is half the price of a comparable boat then there is something about it that explains such a difference.

Hope this gives some food for thought

 

[wonkywinch]

 

[Brc45]

Too many questions - and impossible to give sensible answers.

What sort of boat, size, type? What sort of past use? What sort of future use? How are you defining "refit"? What sort of standard?

Hope this gives some food for thought

Thanks!

To answer your questions, for example:
50 ft sailing catamarans, coming out of island hopping charter in tropical regions.
Future use would be expeditionary, in various regions, up to 50 degrees north and south.

By refit, I mean upgrading or adding several electronic systems - displays, sonar, radar, flir, hydrogenerator, bigger battery banks, side thrusters, expansive solar, fire suppressors, sonic antifouling, more refrigeration, SSB HF, utility room, washer/dryer, reverse-cycle AC, IT rack, non-skid deck, additional sails, and so on to the way we need…

Question one was simply, if all that is done, what percentage of cost is likely to be the cost of labour and supplies, relative to cost of installed/upgraded equipment?
From your last paragraph, seems your answer is about 100%, but just a guess. The estimate we heard so far from DIY refitters of such boat is they saved about 30% of equipment upgrades/ repairs cost by DIY, but also just guessing.

Hoping to find someone who actually calculated that from invoices.

One particular such boat we found, is 7 years old, and asking its base price brand new back then. So, seems reasonable, given the monetary debasement since then. Shall be professionally surveyed, of course, to negotiate actual price.

 

[rogerthebodger]

When I fitted out my 50 foot steel mono hull I have been asked lots of times "how much did it cost you"

My answer is always the same "I don't want to know" this is in case my wife finds out


The other answer is " If you have to ask you cannot afford the refit anyway"

 

[Porthandbuoy]

You'd be better off buying a new, bespoke, boat as a lot of the man-hours will be spent ripping out all the old kit, wiring and plumbing, and then making all sort of compromises trying to shoehorn in everything you want.

 

[Sandy]

Do you want to go sailing or build a boat?

 

[Boathook]

Thanks!

To answer your questions, for example:
50 ft sailing catamarans, coming out of island hopping charter in tropical regions.
Future use would be expeditionary, in various regions, up to 50 degrees north and south.

By refit, I mean upgrading or adding several electronic systems - displays, sonar, radar, flir, hydrogenerator, bigger battery banks, side thrusters, expansive solar, fire suppressors, sonic antifouling, more refrigeration, SSB HF, utility room, washer/dryer, reverse-cycle AC, IT rack, non-skid deck, additional sails, and so on to the way we need…

Question one was simply, if all that is done, what percentage of cost is likely to be the cost of labour and supplies, relative to cost of installed/upgraded equipment?
From your last paragraph, seems your answer is about 100%, but just a guess. The estimate we heard so far from DIY refitters of such boat is they saved about 30% of equipment upgrades/ repairs cost by DIY, but also just guessing.

Hoping to find someone who actually calculated that from invoices.

One particular such boat we found, is 7 years old, and asking its base price brand new back then. So, seems reasonable, given the monetary debasement since then. Shall be professionally surveyed, of course, to negotiate actual price.

When I fitted my bowthruster years ago it cost around £1000 to purchase. An estimate for fitting it was over £2500. For electronics you could easily double the purchase price to fit it, if not more. A lot depends on how much of the existing cabling, locations etc can be used.
If you know the sail dimensions, etc, a lot of sail makers will give you a reasonable accurate estimate to use for budgeting.

 

[Wansworth]

As Joshua Slocum was asked”Will it pay”!

 

[Wansworth]

Just look at any of these YouTube vids of boat restoration,it just slows up once it gets to the fitting out stage and engine and electrics etc,

 

[Brc45]

You'd be better off buying a new, bespoke, boat as a lot of the man-hours will be spent ripping out all the old kit, wiring and plumbing, and then making all sort of compromises trying to shoehorn in everything you want.

I’m a PM working on this for my employer.

My numbers so far are that a second hand boat equipped as we need is not for sale, and ones even somewhat similarly equipped are about 100% more than these charter fleet releases we’ve found. A new bespoke boat would be as much as 200%, with possible problems of a new boat, and most importantly years of waiting to have it built.

I already know the new equipment will cost at most 40% of second hand, bare boat price. So, as long as the labour and materials will not raise the total cost anywhere near 100%, that’s surely the best option, because we shall know exactly what and how all was done, and receive the boat in months, rather than years.

So, I’m trying to verify that the refit will not even close to double the final acquisition cost.
That’s my question here most simplified.

 

[robmcg]

Is it just me or would anyone else hesitate to use an ex charter production catamaran for expeditionary work at 50 degrees north or south, irrespective of how well it was refitted?

 

[Wansworth]

Is it just me or would anyone else hesitate to use an ex charter production catamaran for expeditionary work at 50 degrees north or south, irrespective of how well it was refitted?

YouTube evidence would point to not going down that path

 

[Tranona]

First reaction is that I probably would not start from there. Are you sure that the boats that have been used for charter work in the tropics are a good base for an expedition boat? Are you sure that an ex charter boat is that much cheaper than a private boat of the same standard at the same location and having the same tax status?

Second, refit costs of both components and labour are not related to the purchase price of the base boat, but to the current cost of a comparable new boat.

Third there is not a simple relationship between labour and materials. Just some simple examples of material/labour. Sails 90/10, rigging 70/30 new engine 80/20 Coppercoating hull(s) 20/80 installing electronics/electrics 60/40. Yes you can go back over projects and arrive at %ages - just as I did in post#2, but they are simple post event sums NOT fixed rules. So if you have a materials quote there is no simple metric that turns that figure into the total cost including labour, moving the boat, taxes etc.

If you have a fixed specification and a boat to work from as a base, get quotes from yards if you want to sub contract the whole job. While getting feedback from others about their costs is useful, each job is a one off and there are so many "what ifs" starting with the feasibility of whether what you want as an outcome is possible from your base boat.

The only certainty is that it will, as I said earlier cost more and take longer than you ever imagined. This is not meant to deter you (or your boss) because clearly people do undertake such projects, but it is not for the inexperienced or faint hearted.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Having fully renovated an old boat, it is not what you know now, but what turns up that significantly eats into time and money.

For 50 degrees north or south, hull and rigging integrity is 1, 2 and 3rd priority. Anything that is weak or liable to fail will be at high risk of failing at sea. In my case, as I started the refit, integrity became the dominant factor: waterproof, structural primary, structural secondary, rigging, hull/deck penetrations.

After that, sorting out the interior cabinetry was okay for the low skilled work such as framing, but the high skilled work such as finishing, veneering, detail et cetera took a long time. You soon find that you are faced with old interior and new interior that are not matched, so more older stuff is replaced.

Systems are straightforward enough that is just cash spend and installation, which is easy enough. The hard part was tying in old wiring with new wiring, in my case, that resulted in a significant, partial rewire and new headlining by the time cables were run.

My point is, again, it is not what you know, it is what you don't know. I think a charter catamaran used at high latitudes is a bad idea, there are better hull shapes out there. I spent about 100% of purchase price on refit when I add it all up: structural repairs to stem head, keel, bulkhead, new galley, windows, hatches, deck repairs (oval shaped holes), significant rewire, significant joinery, new rigging, new furling system, new sails, new canvas work, new plotter, new auto helm (refurbished old auto helm motor), new saloon table and chart table.

Initially it was just leaky windows ...

Good luck with whatever you do.

 

[rogerthebodger]

An expertition boat for high latitudes are very different boats to charter boats in the Caribbean.

I had a friend who did the North West passage some years ago and his boat was steel hull with very good insulation and heating with long range fuel tanks. wheel house for steering in bad weather

My boat is similar but not yes done high latitudes yet.

Ralf Dominick’s talk at RNYC

This may be of interest

 

[DownWest]

Dig about for cats used in high, or low altitudes. It might take some time, as people don't.
Charter cats, even less. Boats tend to be custom and monos.
We had an expedition boat here in Rochefort up for grabs. Big, 50ft or so, mono in steel. Looked OK, but apparently had grounded and had leaks. Cost of bringing her back would (and did) scare off any buyer..

 

[DownWest]

I don't envy you dealing with this for your boss. I looked after a biggish ketch(60+ft 35ton) for a client. It was his hobby, but I often had to send bills that were eye watering.

 

[Brc45]

Thanks everyone! That helps!
Sounds like it could double the cost then, and I shall have to reevaluate more equipped boats.

It would have to go to the 40’s to make eastward intercontinental passages, but destinations would all be in the subtropics and northern Med, around the ARC routes and in favourable seasons. Northern Passage and such, not planned at all.
So, doesn’t need to be a custom boat.
The skipper shall be living aboard most of the time, and the owner also wants it to be a more comfortable boat than real expedition boats.

Pro considerations with these charter releases are also that they at least had professional crews, maintenance, and are not that old. Most of their equipment is still in production, and parts availability in remote places should be better, because they are ubiquitous production boats.

We looked at Garcia Expedition for another example, but that‘s difficult to get second hand, frankly too cramped for more than a couple, and not so well equipped for comfortable liveaboard compared to modern catamarans.
Their cat seems perfect, but would have to wait until 2027 to get one brand new.
Pricing seems rather high for what one gets, as well.

 

[Boathook]

Quite a few years ago I used to allow £500 for a project 'parts'. This then went up to £1000 and now I have given up trying to work out costs. And this is with me doing the work on a 45 year old boat. A newer boat wouldn't cost any less.
Just because a boat is big, 50 foot, doesn't mean that it has always had a full time skipper and crew on board.