eddystone
Well-Known Member
A new 20-30HP should be more like £5K plus ancilliaries + installation cost.
Maintenance Costs
- Thread starter boomerangben
- Start date
A new 20-30HP should be more like £5K plus ancilliaries + installation cost.
Graham376
Well-Known Member
If you are looking at reducing maintenance costs, twin/bilge keelers are usually cheaper than fins as can be beached for DIY clean off, polish, antifoul, change hull fittings etc. whereas fin keelers are normally hauled out with associated lift and yard costs.
I've found over 25 years, most routine annual maintenance jobs are cheap for parts but, if done professionally, can be 10 times or more the price. Personally, I can't understand why so many owners pay for such things as engine servicing which is so easy to DIY.
As others have said, much will depend on the state of the boat you buy. Buying the cheapest around could cost much more over a few years than a dearer one already sorted.
I've found over 25 years, most routine annual maintenance jobs are cheap for parts but, if done professionally, can be 10 times or more the price. Personally, I can't understand why so many owners pay for such things as engine servicing which is so easy to DIY.
As others have said, much will depend on the state of the boat you buy. Buying the cheapest around could cost much more over a few years than a dearer one already sorted.
Buck Turgidson
Well-Known Member
It really depends on the initial condition and how much you are going to refit immediately or "down the line". If you start to call refit costs maintenance then the annual costs could be very high. If you are simply maintaining the boat then a splash of antifoul and consumables like filters and seals doesn't cost much if you DIY or costs a bloody fortune if you pay a yard to do it.
Concerto
Well-Known Member
As a Fulmar owner, I can only agree with your choice. Since buying Concerto in late 2014, I have done a lot of work to her. It is all documented on the old Westerly Owners Forum. https://forum.westerly-owners.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2748&sid=d2ae4607224a610780b50bf2edeeddf7 There is a an associated photo file showing how it was all done. The link starts as she looked when I bought her. https://s1294.photobucket.com/user/ConcertoFulmar32/library?page=9 I have not finished all the renovations but have less than £2,000 to complete. So far I have spent about £23,000 over the purchase price.
The best advice I can give is to buy the best example that is available, even if it is the most expensive one. Try and find one with a replacement engine (Beta is best in my opinion) and has the headlinings replaced. A replacement engine will cost about £5000 to £6000 for the engine and gearbox along with new engine supports. You may need a new propeller and stern gland. New headlinings will cost about £2000 to do yourself. New standing rigging will cost about £1000 and self fit kits are available to XW Rigging in Gosport, they hold the original records of the rigging for all Westerlys built. There is some other useful advice on what to check on a Fulmar here. https://wiki.westerly-owners.co.uk/index.php?title=Fulmar_Maintenance_and_Repair One additional thing to check is the condition of the stanchion bases as at nearly 40 years and made of aluminium alloy, they are prone to develop cracks.
If you would like further advice on a Fulmar you are considering, I would be happy for you to Private Message me with information and link to the details. I should mention I am a WOA BoatLine member for the Fulmar.
As to maintenance costs, rather than renovation costs, you should budget at least £1500 per year to cover lift out, antifoul, engine filters and oil, insurance and minor replacement of old parts like old fittings and ropes.
The best advice I can give is to buy the best example that is available, even if it is the most expensive one. Try and find one with a replacement engine (Beta is best in my opinion) and has the headlinings replaced. A replacement engine will cost about £5000 to £6000 for the engine and gearbox along with new engine supports. You may need a new propeller and stern gland. New headlinings will cost about £2000 to do yourself. New standing rigging will cost about £1000 and self fit kits are available to XW Rigging in Gosport, they hold the original records of the rigging for all Westerlys built. There is some other useful advice on what to check on a Fulmar here. https://wiki.westerly-owners.co.uk/index.php?title=Fulmar_Maintenance_and_Repair One additional thing to check is the condition of the stanchion bases as at nearly 40 years and made of aluminium alloy, they are prone to develop cracks.
If you would like further advice on a Fulmar you are considering, I would be happy for you to Private Message me with information and link to the details. I should mention I am a WOA BoatLine member for the Fulmar.
As to maintenance costs, rather than renovation costs, you should budget at least £1500 per year to cover lift out, antifoul, engine filters and oil, insurance and minor replacement of old parts like old fittings and ropes.
pvb
Well-Known Member
As I wrote in post 9, the price of a 30 year old Westerly would buy a much newer AWB, which would sail at least as well, be much nicer to live in, probably be better equipped, and wouldn't need rebuilding. Most importantly, it most likely wouldn't need anywhere near as much spending on it, which is basically money down the drain. After your £25K renovations, you'll still have a £20K boat. Regardless, I understand that some people just like having a project to work on, and that the economics don't necessarily matter for some.
Birdseye
Well-Known Member
Ignoring marina / berthing issues there is no reason why you couldnt maintain a fulmar on£1k a year DIY. The exceptions would be the years you needed new sails or god forbid a new engine. Things like rigging you can diy, sails depend on how good you want to go but say £1.5k for each. Its so long since I did an engine that my numbers arent worth quoting.
The key issue is your standards. If you are boat proud you can easily spend £7k a year. If you are a slob you might spend nothing.
The key issue is your standards. If you are boat proud you can easily spend £7k a year. If you are a slob you might spend nothing.
Fr J Hackett
Well-Known Member
Was she an old Westerly Sea School boat? If so I did my Coastal Skipper on her.:encouragement:
doug748
Well-Known Member
As several posts have warned, do not confuse upgrading or rebuilding with maintenance.
Newer boats are more expensive and not everyone is convinced by some designs. Nor would you be exempt from spending, the example given in post 9 needs 4 grands worth of sails and, arguably, re rigging.
It would be initially 50% more to buy, than a sound Fulmar, and as for it sailing "at least as well" not even the designer's mother would claim that.
maby
Well-Known Member
That is very dependent on location - in a Solent marina a lift and relaunch will cost over £600 - not leaving much to cover materials.
pvb
Well-Known Member
I compared its price to a Storm, which the OP was prepared to consider. For the average cruising owner, and I hope I'm not insulting the OP by assuming he fits into that category, a more modern AWB would certainly perform just as well as an ancient Westerly.
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doug748
Well-Known Member
I do agree that most owners are happy with the performance (in the full context) of their boats or they might not put up with them.
But if you are equating the inshore sailing speed of a Bavaria 31 with that of a Westerly Storm, then I am foxed.
pvb
Well-Known Member
Which is exactly why I advised in post 8 that the "traditional" winter lift-out every year isn't necessarily the wisest solution. In my East Coast Marina, a winter lift-out, cradle for a week and re-launch costs around £590 for my 37ft boat. Add say just one 2.5 litre can of antifoul, and I'm looking at around £700 a year. But I lift out only every 2 years, put more antifoul on so it lasts, and do it in the summer when there's a cheap lift-out offer (and warmer weather makes the job more pleasant!). I've just paid £253 for lift-out, 2 weeks cradle and re-launch, plus £240 for 5 litres of Micron antifoul, total £493 for 2 years, versus £1400 for 2 years if I did it annually. No contest!
lw395
Well-Known Member
I don't think too many people manage to make antifoul last 2 years around the Solent anyway?
The cheap route is hard AF and regular scrubs, or coppercoat.
Some people cut haul out and storage costs a lot via clubs.
It's hard to draw rigid lines between maintenance, depreciation and upgrades.
Older boats will often throw you bills for deck hardware, but you end up with a more modern fit out for instance.
Likewise interior furnishings wear and get upgraded.
A paint job on an MAB could be viewed maintenance or an upgrade.
The maintenance that gets put off (and there is always some?) becomes aggravated depreciation.
The cheap route is hard AF and regular scrubs, or coppercoat.
Some people cut haul out and storage costs a lot via clubs.
It's hard to draw rigid lines between maintenance, depreciation and upgrades.
Older boats will often throw you bills for deck hardware, but you end up with a more modern fit out for instance.
Likewise interior furnishings wear and get upgraded.
A paint job on an MAB could be viewed maintenance or an upgrade.
The maintenance that gets put off (and there is always some?) becomes aggravated depreciation.
pvb
Well-Known Member
Invariably because they don't put enough on....
Concerto
Well-Known Member
Not to my knowledge, she was not a Westerly school boat. She has been privately owned from new. When first sold she had joint owners in the Solent, then one owner was changed to another. Then sold to someone from the Medway. The next owner was also on the Medway and I am now based on the Medway.
Concerto
Well-Known Member
We will always differ on this point. I could easily have done a cheaper renovation, but I am doing this for me and expect to still be sailing her in 10 years time. As I mentioned in a previous thread I could have bought a new 32ft boat. So when I do a comparison between my boat and a new boat, mine will be in an almost new condition but at a third of the cost allowing for all the expensive renovations I have done. The other two thirds of the money was invested in a flat for my daughter whilst at university. This has now been sold and I made over £10,000 profit. A much better return than spending it on a yacht that would instantly depreciate. By comparison I have had a string of visitors on my boat and had numerous people wanting to buy her because of the condition. By comparison you have a mass produced factory yacht that may be nicer to live on, but it will have plenty of similar condition yachts to choose from. Mine Fulmar stands out from other Fulmars, not just condition but it is sorted for serious sailing singlehanded. So I made my choice and you have made yours, and we are both happy with our yachts.
Concerto
Well-Known Member
In your costings I see you make no mention of changing anodes or the future cost to change of the sail drive seal. Maybe having a shaft drive is a cost saving compared to an AWB.
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pvb
Well-Known Member
It wasn't relevant in the context of annual hauling and antifouling. You are aware that a lot of AWBs are shaft drive?
seumask
Well-Known Member
We have had a Fulmar for over 8 years sailing it around the channel with growing kids and doing the maintenance ourselves. I concur that the annual Maintenance only is in the region of £500, and some years its lower at £250 and once we brought a new set of sails for around £4k. Head lining is the most tedious element not yet under control and I patch it up most years with more glue and scrapping out the rotten foam. It's eminently DIY territory just have not had enough time to make it lovely! I thought I might replace the engine, but the more I get to know the Bukh 24 the less it seems to be necessary, and good previous lifeboat ones are available for around £3k if there was something terribly wrong with it.
Friends have the storm which is bigger but in my mind not as comfortable. We are really looking forward to sailing it ourselves when the kids up and leave! We effectively single hand sail the boat most of the time and they are ideal for that, provided you have a good autopilot, which will set you back a further grand for the separate computer and ram type.
At some point she will need painting as the exterior gelcoat is wearing away, but again that will be DIY and probably £500-£1000.
As you can see one biased owner hoping you enjoy a Fulmar.
Friends have the storm which is bigger but in my mind not as comfortable. We are really looking forward to sailing it ourselves when the kids up and leave! We effectively single hand sail the boat most of the time and they are ideal for that, provided you have a good autopilot, which will set you back a further grand for the separate computer and ram type.
At some point she will need painting as the exterior gelcoat is wearing away, but again that will be DIY and probably £500-£1000.
As you can see one biased owner hoping you enjoy a Fulmar.
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