mainsheet cleat on traveller or cockpit floor?

[DHV90]

Hi guys,

redesigning the deck layout on our boat and not sure whether to keep our mainsheet tackle entirely on the traveller, or divert it so a stand up ratchet block with a cam cleat on the cockpit floor so the cleating point doesnt move when using the traveller. Yet, this will be a bit less neat and will also make the traveller less effective.

Does anyone have any experience or thoughts?

The floor mounted block does seem appealing, but losing traveller effectiveness would be a shame. Would be tempted to extend the traveller further onto the side decks perhaps as I am replacing the track anyway?

The other disadvantage with the traveller mounted block, as we currently have, is that the traveller is inline with the side decks, so quite high up when sitting in the cockpit. This makes uncleating/cleating a bit of a handful in stronger wind, especially when further down the traveller.

Open to any ideas and experience, so thanks in advance for the help.

 

[bbg]

Are you planning to have the central block / cleat forward of the traveller or aft? If forward, the farther forward it is, the less it will affect the effectiveness of the traveller provided you lead the sheet from the upper main sheet block along the boom to another block and lead it vertically down from there to the central block.

If you are thinking of having it aft of the traveller, it will significantly affect the position of the traveller, and in that case (if you were to do it) you would want to NOT lead it along the boom first. And to keep it as close as possible to the traveller.

In the end I would prefer ease of sail handling over a slight loss in performance of the traveller. Just remember with that setup, changing the position of the traveller will require you to change the sheet in order to maintain the same sail shape.

 

[lw395]

How big is the sail?
what ratio is the sheet?
Would a fine-tune with the cleat(s) mounted on the cockpit sole be an answer?
How do you use your traveller? If your traveller is your primary control that gets played in gusts, it could do with being properly independent of the sheet, i.e. the sheet not getting tighter as the car goes to leeward. If you just set the traveller and crack the sheet in gusts, then the fact that only 5 out of 6 parts of the sheet are on the car won't matter.

You need to think about 'who sits where' in terms of cleat location. I would have it behind the track so the helm can use it when shorthanded. YMMV.

 

[lpdsn]

Being able to quickly cleat or uncleat the mainsheet with no need for a second or third attempt at either is the most important. As others have said, you'd need to adjust the sheet if adjusting the traveller, but you normally have to do that anyway for good trim.

 

[flaming]

You need to think about 'who sits where' in terms of cleat location. I would have it behind the track so the helm can use it when shorthanded. YMMV.

Most important is that if fully crewed racing is your main focus and you separate the cleat from the traveller the mainsheet person MUST be able to cross the cockpit the same side of the traveller as the cleat. Otherwise you have to let go of the sheet and grapple for it after the tack. When I sailed a boat as mainsheet that had that setup I used to coil the sheet on my lap and throw it through the gap before a tack. Even so I still missed a big dump out of a tack a couple of times because I fumbled the sheet. Very annoying.

 

[Keen_Ed]

I hated it when Sailing on a Reflex 38 which had the coarse tune on a cleat on the traveller. Really difficult to make any adjustments to the mainsheet without pulling the traveller car up towards you. Far prefer cleats/swivel blocks on cockpit sole.

 

[flaming]

I hated it when Sailing on a Reflex 38 which had the coarse tune on a cleat on the traveller. Really difficult to make any adjustments to the mainsheet without pulling the traveller car up towards you. Far prefer cleats/swivel blocks on cockpit sole.

Elan has that. Foot on the block is the cure, but only really a problem in the light. I have to admit I prefer the cleat on the traveller, as I don't want to change the leach tension when I move the traveller.

 

[Birdseye]

The theory is that you set up the sail shape for a given wind with the outhaul and sheet and halyard and then get the correct angle of attack with the traveller, until you get to the end of the track. Then the kicker takes over from the sheet and the sheet takes over from the track. If you have a fixed point in the middle of the cockpit sole then the sail shape will change as the sail goes up and down the track.

I emphasise theory. The continuous changes you make as you sail the boat and the wind varies , for example to backstay and cunningham, will alter shape anyway but you are adding an extra one. That said, my boat isnt such a fine racing machine that sensitivity to sail shape shows up so quickly.

I am not sure I understand why you would want to do what you describe. There has to be a better way of sheet control than that.

 

[DHV90]

Thanks for all the input so far, very useful, and the fixed point on the cockpit sole affecting leach tension had totally slipped my mind, and puts me off this setup a bit! The traveller is absolutely our main control, playing that through gusts rather than the sheet. We sail short handed as well, usually 2 up so I helm and manage the main, with tiller in one hand and traveller in the other. having to constantly juggle sheet and traveller would get tiresome I think!

Locating the mainsheet block further forwards isn't really an option unfortunately, which would take it out of reach of the helm very quickly.

Would a decent harken block and cam cleat be a bit easier for flicking out of the cleat from a distance when the traveller is all the way to leeward? Our current tackle isn't great and I am planning on going with harken bearing gear, so is there some hope that this improvement might make the cleat on the traveller more bearable?

A fine tune running to the cockpit sole is unlikely to help, purchase is not an issue and all that would do is restrict the traveller movement and tighten the leech when letting the traveller down, without giving any benefits for handling.


in terms of who sits where, crossing the cockpit without having to pass the sheet around anything has been a priority, but either setup would work for that. The traveller bridge is very high up (which contributes to the cleating difficulties when sat in the cockpit, rather than on the side deck) so there is ample space below to locate a ratchet block so that either the helm can trim, or crew can trim from forwards of the traveller. Obviously with the cleat on the traveller that problem is simplified (there will be a single swivel on the boom so the whole lot and be turned to face fore or aft)



Thanks again for all the input, very glad i asked!

 

[Birdseye]

Have you thought of a wire tail from traveller half way to the boom? This would raise the sheet block and the cam cleat making it easier to flick out of the cleat. It would also mean less rope to pull in and out.

 

[lw395]

Have you thought of a wire tail from traveller half way to the boom? This would raise the sheet block and the cam cleat making it easier to flick out of the cleat. It would also mean less rope to pull in and out.

It doesn't change the length of rope you have to move.
A block flapping about in mid air can cause injuries in a gybe.
Blocks on long strops are generally a bad idea in the cockpit.

It's possible to raise the ends of the track so that the leach tension stays roughly the same as the traveller is eased.

 

[DHV90]

The issue is not the block being too low, the block is too high!

Our traveller runs at the same height as the side decks, so when sat in the cockpit the lower mainsheet block is at shoulder-ish level so an upwards pull to cleat the line is pulling upwards almost over your head, even on the lowest adjustment of the camcleat on our current blocks, because of this you have to stand up to cleat in stronger wind, which is what I would like to avoid.

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

Maybe a silly question, but I remember at least one jammer block that I could turn the cleat bracket upside down on. That would let you pull it down to release. I can see that with a mid-height traveller as you have that there will be times when either way up will be awkward.

 

[bbg]

The issue is not the block being too low, the block is too high!

Our traveller runs at the same height as the side decks, so when sat in the cockpit the lower mainsheet block is at shoulder-ish level so an upwards pull to cleat the line is pulling upwards almost over your head, even on the lowest adjustment of the camcleat on our current blocks, because of this you have to stand up to cleat in stronger wind, which is what I would like to avoid.

Here is a potential, if slightly fiddly, solution. You could run the sheet from the cam-cleat to another block that has been secured a foot or two forward on the boom.* Easy to do with a loose-footed main and a lashing around the boom. When trimming, you trim directly from the lower block. Once cleated in the cam cleat, you pull the slack through the upper block.

Does that make sense? As I say it would be fiddly in terms of trimming but it might solve your problem of being able to release the sheet quickly.

* I have assumed the traveller is at the rear of the cockpit, and you trim the sheet ahead of the traveller. If you trim the sheet from behind the traveller, you would need to fix the additional block to the boom behind the traveller.

 

[DHV90]

Hi guys,

all good suggestions! but the cam cleat is already downwards facing, so you pull down to uncleat, and lift up to cleat. It is fine when sitting on the side decks tbh, what doesnt help with this is that the boom has 2 blocks attached, so the total tackle doesnt swivel very well, even when turning 90 degrees the sheet makes quite a lot of friction. A single swivel top and bottom will cure this.

the main problem with cleating angle is when sitting in the cockpit in worse weather, where uncleating or cleating both require a fair bit of strength with your arm extended at slightly above shoulder level, so theres barely any leverage available! thanks again for all the useful suggestions

 

[Resolution]

Hi guys,
the main problem with cleating angle is when sitting in the cockpit in worse weather, where uncleating or cleating both require a fair bit of strength with your arm extended at slightly above shoulder level, so theres barely any leverage available! thanks again for all the useful suggestions

Is there any reason why you could not incorporate one of the Spinlock tilting cleats (PXR?) ? I know it was some years ago, but when we were racing Sigma 33s the inability to release the mainsheet in gusts was often a scary problem. We solved it completely by starting again from scratch with a fine/coarse system ending with one of these tilting Spinlocks. Always easy to lock or to unlock, it was superb.

 

[DHV90]

I honestly hadn't thought of a pxr thing, ive used them on smaller control lines and love them just didn't even cross my mind for the main sheet, so thanks for suggesting it! was it in a fixed position or mounted on the traveller car? if you happen to have any photos of that setup Id love to see them. Any ideas on how to mount that sort of setup on a traveler car anyone?

Anyone know if it would be possible to replace the cam cleat on an average harken ratchet/cam block with a spinlock? that could potentially work, I was sure i had an old 10mm PXR somewhere on the boat so might give that a try!

 

[Ingwe]

I honestly hadn't thought of a pxr thing, ive used them on smaller control lines and love them just didn't even cross my mind for the main sheet, so thanks for suggesting it! was it in a fixed position or mounted on the traveller car? if you happen to have any photos of that setup Id love to see them. Any ideas on how to mount that sort of setup on a traveler car anyone?

Anyone know if it would be possible to replace the cam cleat on an average harken ratchet/cam block with a spinlock? that could potentially work, I was sure i had an old 10mm PXR somewhere on the boat so might give that a try!

Yes there is a version of the PXR which is designed as a retrofit with a different base so that it is a like for like screw hole switch between it and the equivalent harken cam cleat - its probably the PXR0810/T that you want. One thing to bear in mind if you do this is to periodically check the small bolt that holds the two half's of this type of PXR cleat together as they seem to gradually work their way loose due to vibrations (normally takes about 2 seasons for us) and its a bit of a fiddle putting it back together whilst your sailing.

 

[Triassic]

If I've read this right you have tiller steering with the traveller ahead of the helm position. Would I be right in thinking the control lines for the traveller would therefore fall nicely for the hand not on the helm (assuming you are sitting weather side) and the problem then is that when off the wind the mainsheet is then away over the lee side of the cockpit and hard to get to?

The best solution I've seen for this is to use a double ended mainsheet. It effectively runs through the blocks between the boom and traveller and then both ends are taken forward along the boom to the gooseneck and then down to the deck (a bit like reefing lines are). From there they are taken back along both sides of the cabin top to cam cleats positioned on the cockpit combing right next to the headsail winches. On the particular example I saw the vessel had been set up for single handing so they had crossed the jib sheets across the cockpit as well so the helm had both sheets and traveller controls all close to hand whilst sat on the weather side.

 

[Triassic]

Hmmmm, it's a small world isn't it and you learn something new every day. Apparently the system I described has a name... see this thread!

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?468822-Handling-the-German-Mainsheet-System

The example I saw didn't use winches but had a much larger reduction at the end of the boom, something like 8/1.