Main Sheets query

[Talbot]

I went aboard a chums boat recently and saw that his main sheets were attached at top and bottom by use of carbine clips.

When asked why, he replied that it was recommended by RNLI so that the main sheets could rapidly be upended and used to haul someone out of the water.

Seemed like a good idea, but I have not seen it implemented elsewhere - does anyone have theirs rigged like this, or any reason why it is not a good idea?

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[tome]

Hand on heart, I think it's a dreadful idea.

This type of clip (unlike the safety clips on harnesses, which have a double release mechanism) can easily be opened by a flogging sheet just when you don't need it to let go. Much better to have a proper snap-shackle with release pin if you want to achieve this.

All IMHO

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[Benbow]

Seems like a horible system to me too. Doesn't it mean you have to drop the main before you can recover someone ? or risk having the boom swinging about wildly ?

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[Robin]

Bad idea IMO, as Tome says, these clips can open all too easily. MOB recovery requires a dedicated made up ready to use tackle, ours is even tied with light stuff to keep it untangled in the locker. Also if the mainsheet is removed to be use for a recovery, the boom is now free to crash about at will, just what you need that, a severe risk of the boom hitting the only crew left on board who is trying to do the rescue if you are just 2 up like us!

<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1>Sermons from my pulpit are with tongue firmly in cheek and come with no warranty!</font size=1>

 

[tome]

Without wanting to risk another endless thread about MOB recovery, I believe that a warping drum on a power windlass using a spinnaker halyard is my only chance. A spinnaker halyard has a swivel at the top, so allows articulation, unlike a main or jib halyard. The halyard has to be long enough to reach the casualties harness in the water and also with a tail long enough to get around the warping drum, perhaps via a snatch block to give a fair lead.

Any idea of using the boom means that you have to drop the main and get it under control and then fiddle about with topping lifts, detach the mainsheet, swing out the boom etc. Great stuff in a classroom, but think about the reality on a dirty night with the boat and boom swinging wildly.

I managed to lift my dear wife over the threshold after our wedding, but that was a fair lift some years ago. I did a rescue craft training course and the depressing facts are that the final stage of MOB recovery from alongside to onboard requires 99% of the skill and effort.

Fair enough on a well crewed RNLI boat with purpose made lifting tackle and davit arranged amidships at the lowest deck height, but not for me.

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[Talbot]

The issue of the carbine hook releasing is a non issue as you can get carbine hooks that have a spring loaded keeper to stop that happening , but the problem of loss of control of the boom is the most important IMHO. I have a cat and think that the spinnaker line is not so valid because of the boats width and because you really want to haul the casualty straight into the cockpit, although use of the electric windlass is tempting - but if you are on your own, it means you have to be up forward when you may well need to be in the cockpit. I have behind-mast reefing so getting rid of the mainsail is simple, and the boom is already well past head height so is not a problem. Suspect that I would use the gybe preventer to control the boom and act as the counterbalance to heaving the casualty up on the mainsheets - probably using the genoa winch to provide the boost for my reducing muscles /forums/images/icons/smile.gif
A recent mod on my boat meant that when I rescued someone recently, although exhausted, they were still able to manage the ladder. What I did was to get the longest ladder I could buy, half of it is underwater, and when I dry out, it is just the right height to climb onboard. This meant that the casualty did not have to haul his weight out of the water mainly on his arms, but was easily able to place his feet on the ladder and just climb out. I was originally worried about the flexing of the ladder fwd and aft, but I had got some rubber feet from a caravan shop and installed them on the ladder legs that held it out from the side, and they acted as suckers against the ships side. They were the only problem, in that removing the ladder after the incident was relatively difficult because of the suckers, and they actually stayed on the GRP rather than the ladder (and of cause washed off before I made port). During this rescue, I was singlehanding at the time and was concerned that I not get a rope around the prop (blowing 35+ knots, and my boat at full astern was just staying with the casualty - would probably have managed 4 knots under bare poles at the time!) Therefore I got a rope to him and insisted he secured it around him, and then secured it to a cleat before I cut the engine and assisted him to the ladder. Had just got him into the cockpit when the inshore rescue boat turned up!

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[Robin]

I'm having a panic attack thinking about the spi halyard on the windlass on a pitching foredeck with the other end tied to maybe me in the water! Our set up just 2 on board, is the one advised by Lifesling and US Coastguard, a ready made tackle to attach to the main or spi halyard (or any other), recommended 10ft min above deck, the tail of the tackle goes through the genoa fairlead and onto the winch, loads of available power. Preferable though is to stay on board and leave it all in the locker!

<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1>Sermons from my pulpit are with tongue firmly in cheek and come with no warranty!</font size=1>

 

[boatless]

As said, carbine hook is not secure, and more importantly, is not as strong as a proper snapshackle.

But, there is another exceptionally good reason for having one at the bottom at least. When in harbour, clip the main out to the toerail. Big improvement in cockpit space. Try it, you'll love it.

<hr width=100% size=1>my opinion is complete rubbish, probably.

 

[tome]

I base my radical conclusions on a week of training at Maritime Rescue International in Stonehaven some years back. Ignoring the fact that a casualty that has been immersed for any length of time should be lifted horizontally to prevent potentially fatal organ shock (not practical with a 1 man remaining crew), I'm convinced that there isn't a tackle on earth which would allow you to recover without mechanical assistance.

The spi halyard may well snatch, but the windlass would at least get you on board where I could start to treat symptoms. With a long enough halyard, I could tail from the recovery position to ease the casualty onboard, provided I had a remote for the windlass.

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[alahol2]

On my previous boat, a cat, I had a specifically lengthened boom and a snap shackle at the lower end of the mainsheet. Attaching a snatch block further forward on the boom allowed the hauling part to be led up for a better 'pulling' lead, it also meant that, when lifting, the cam cleat was operational. With this tackle I regularly lifted a small rib on and off its rack.
I could also lift my outboard off the back and into a dinghy with little drama.
I believe I could also have lifted a person back aboard once having secured them alongside.
Altogether a very useful tool.

<hr width=100% size=1>I really would rather be sailing...

 

[Talbot]

Whilst agree that normal carbine hooks are not secure, there is a locking version:

If your boom is already high enough to pass over your wheelhouse which has 6ft headroom, then there really isnt a big problem, even less when your cockpit is 11ft x 5 ft (+ wheelhouse) [smile}

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[boatless]

Look, I'm just not going to rise to this.

If catamarans are so good, why do they all sail them on just one hull?

<hr width=100% size=1>my opinion is complete rubbish, probably.

 

[toad]

Yes,I have one connecting my mainsheet to the traveller and have never had it accidently release in 15 years.I have never thought about man overboard use but when in port you can clip it to the guard rails and have a clear cockpit,but its main use is as a crane to lift 5gall cans of fuel and the outboard out of the tender when on my mooring.

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[qsiv]

As an aside the load factor on carbines is about half that of a D shackle (at my size that is a reduction of two tons.

If you want to use the boom, then rig a preventer, and use a watch tackle / handy billy to do the actual lift. I suspect that a bigger problem is the fact that it brings the MOB on board far too far aft - higher freeboard and greater pitching. Most people would choose to recover by the shrouds or at a boarding gate. The second issue is clearance - depending on boat size you wil eaither have insufficient clearance over the guardrails, or immense clearance (our boom is 9 feet above WL). You also have to muck about trimming the boom in to the centreline, all the while keeping it from swinging - very slow, and ultimately dangerous. A halyard (maybe not on a cat) has to be better....

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[Robin]

Yes agreed, plus there is the option of various halyards depending on what is in use or free, we would have spinnaker, main, staysail, topping lift and pole lifts to choose from. In order to have enough clearance over the guardrails and allow a tackle to work it has to be at least 10ft above deck preferably more (ours is 4:1 so 10ft would give just 2.5ft of lift to clear the rails so 12ft or more would be better). We have the option in calm conditions of recovery using the deep stern ladder on the scoop stern but more probably the midships position having got the casualty alongside with the Lifesling would be needed, the Lifesling/casualty can be temporarily attached to the centre cleat whilst the tackle/halyard system is set up. I have to say I am sceptical about the use of the windlass especially as ours is mounted in the anchor locker, if we had more crew maybe, but for us recovery would be a singlehanded operation.

<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1>Sermons from my pulpit are with tongue firmly in cheek and come with no warranty!</font size=1>

 

[Talbot]

Only little cats sail on one hull, cruising boats make use of both, cause otherwise you spill the G&T. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

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[boatless]

When you get your new boat won't you just push the button and bat them out of the water?

<hr width=100% size=1>my opinion is complete rubbish, probably.

 

[dralex]

Totally agree. If you use a fairly large clip, it actually takes quite a lot of pressure to open the gate. Also, even if the gate was accidentally opened by a flogging sheet, it's spring loaded so will close again. It would also take some interesting movements after this to unhook the clip. As far as strength goes, the gate is designed to add strength when closed, ie it effectively becomes a closed link. BUT as is said here, it's great to just clip the boom over on the toerail in harbour. Needless to say, I have this system on my boat, but had never considered it as a MOB option.

<hr width=100% size=1>Life's too short- do it now.

 

[boatless]

That's the other use for the mainsheet snapshackle. We just trip it when the drinks start to slide.

<hr width=100% size=1>my opinion is complete rubbish, probably.

 

[extravert]

The diameter of the hinge pin of carbine hooks is tiny. The load that it will have to take from the mainsheet is considerable. I have seem much more robust fittings on mainsheets get mangled on not too big boats.

In my opinion, it's not the right fitting for the job, because despite its quick release capability, it won't be strong enough on anything other than a small boat.

<hr width=100% size=1>One day, I want to be a real sailor. In the mean time I'll just keep tri-ing.