Maersk Tasked with Finding Hundreds of Missing Containers in Bay of Biscay

[Tomahawk]

The scenario I envisage is hitting a container leading to taking on water... About that time they made the radio call. The impact weakened the frame and the keel fell off and she turned upside down.

As I said it is speculation.

 

[Scillypete]

I think there is about as much chance of a Malaysian airline crashlanding on you as there is of hitting a floating container, unless of course you regularly follow the main shipping lanes in poor weather where there is a small possibility of coming across one still floating if it has just come adrift from said container ship.

Large logs, Trees washed out of flooded rivers and maybe whales pose more of a hazard out on the ocean.

 

[sailorman]

Will we ever see a more reliable way of transporting goods - whether it be more secure way of locking containers on deck, or any other alternative methods?

We used to by local, now most everything comes from China
when i first started sailing the Southern North Sea one might, just might,see a cartransporter now is many each crossing

 

[clyst]

quite so, but the likelihood of any floaters still out there is nil

I assume if empty they could be easily lifted with a crane magnet (as per scrap yards) ?

Then use a low loader to take them to a landfill, maybe near Preston ? Then the loader could be use to ........

 

[JumbleDuck]

I think there is about as much chance of a Malaysian airline crashlanding on you as there is of hitting a floating container, unless of course you regularly follow the main shipping lanes in poor weather where there is a small possibility of coming across one still floating if it has just come adrift from said container ship.

Indeed. On my DS course, twenty five years ago, I was warned about the hazards of submerged containers which lurked everywhere in brazen defiance of the laws of physics. I have yet to read a confirmed sighting of one of these mythical objects.

 

[RAI]

This is the low side estimate of containers lost per year.

www.worldshipping.org/industry.../Containers_Overboard__Final.pdf

Dang! Google "number of containers lost at sea"

 

[Mariner69]

Containers have four small open ventilators in the top of the long sides. The floors are plywood bolted to the Corten steel cross members. Door seals vary greatly in quality.

A forty foot, high cube, container, probably the most common in use these days, has a cubic capacity of 76.4 cu metres. The gross weight is 32.5 tonnes. The outside measurement is 12.192 metres long, 2.438 metres wide and 2.896 metres high.

Assume this container drops and over the side and floats with the roof just afloat then it will displace 88.23 tonnes. Yet the all up weight is only 32.5 tonnes so it will float at about a draught of 1 metre. This is what you see initially but they then roll and start to sink.

The only time I have seen containers maintain a near surface position was when lost overboard in shallow water when they 'showed' at various stages of the tide.

There could be a mechanism similar to that in human bodies where they sink and then gases of putrefaction distend the body, increase the buoyancy and make it float but that would only work after the contents of he container have rotted and displaced water to reduce the weight thus increasing buoyancy but only for a very short time as the gases will escape.

Pallets and old tree trunks are a more likely risk for collisions.

 

[Javelin]

I've seen three floating containers.
All three were spotted only after we were past them or at least along side.
Each time the weather was benign and as I remember we were under power rather than sail.
One was around 40nm west of Brest about 12 years ago
One was north of Alderney on our way back to Plymouth about 8 years ago
The last was on the way into la Coruna about two years ago.

Each time I saw one end rather than the top or side, with a corner higher than the others.
We reported the position each time but heard no more.

Fishermen I've spoken to in Alderney say they see one a month on average and I remember being told some time ago that a couple of Channel Island boats have had wire nets made to capture and drag them back to shore.
I also remember a visit to Alderney a few years back where the locals were looking for converters so they could run big 120v fridges that were destined for Canada I believe but ended up on a local beach.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

I think there is about as much chance of a Malaysian airline crashlanding on you as there is of hitting a floating container, unless of course you regularly follow the main shipping lanes in poor weather where there is a small possibility of coming across one still floating if it has just come adrift from said container ship.

Large logs, Trees washed out of flooded rivers and maybe whales pose more of a hazard out on the ocean.

Indeed. About 50 years ago, one of the yachts that moored near us at South ferriby was lost crossing the North sea - she hit a lump of wood. Fortunately, the family survived to tell the tale!

 

[Javelin]

Obviously danger scales with speed that you are travelling when hitting any object.
So a powerboat doing 24knts is likely to come off worse than a long keel heavy displacement yacht doing 6knts.

On my numerous trips between UK and abroad and especially down to Gib my main worry has been when I've been under power and running over unlit fishing marks/nets/pots with trails.
These are especially bad off the coast of Portugal and North Spain.

Also see large clumps of floating **** like rope,nets, and other nasties between UK and Holland on just about every trip.

Hitting something solid like a container, log, rotten and broken piles has a very low chance but at speed the fact is it will ruin your day in a big way.

 

[snowleopard]

The loss of containers is a result of stacking them on deck instead of inside the hull. Ship owners do that because ports charge by size of hull, not what's stacked on deck. And ports won't charge by gross capacity because the ship owners would go elsewhere. A bad system but thoroughly entrenched and the big losers are people in small boats who occasionally hit the boxes but have no economic clout.

Just another example of 'international law' being toothless.

 

[Greenheart]

A bad system but thoroughly entrenched and the big losers are people in small boats who occasionally hit the boxes but have no economic clout.

Don't insurers object to a system that doesn't discourage these losses? Or are instances so rare and relatively insignificant, it's more profitable not to trouble the shippers?

 

[Tomahawk]

Another component is the nature of the cargo in the box. If full of engineering components... down down fairly fast. If however it is packed with computers which are padded in insulation foam , thre is possibly enough bouancy to keep it afloat indefinatelly.

It would be impossible to enforce a law requiring that no packaging can float.

 

[Tomahawk]

The loss of containers is a result of stacking them on deck instead of inside the hull. Ship owners do that because ports charge by size of hull, not what's stacked on deck. And ports won't charge by gross capacity because the ship owners would go elsewhere. A bad system but thoroughly entrenched and the big losers are people in small boats who occasionally hit the boxes but have no economic clout.

Just another example of 'international law' being toothless.

But ship design could include side stack rails for every line of containers. They have them a bit of the way up... But never far enough to reach to higher levels.

 

[fergie_mac66]

Obviously danger scales with speed that you are travelling when hitting any object.
So a powerboat doing 24knts is likely to come off worse than a long keel heavy displacement yacht doing 6knts.

On my numerous trips between UK and abroad and especially down to Gib my main worry has been when I've been under power and running over unlit fishing marks/nets/pots with trails.
These are especially bad off the coast of Portugal and North Spain.

Also see large clumps of floating **** like rope,nets, and other nasties between UK and Holland on just about every trip.

Hitting something solid like a container, log, rotten and broken piles has a very low chance but at speed the fact is it will ruin your day in a big way.

we hit an almost submerged tree trunk in 2012, resulted in a losing one rudder mid channel, followed by an enforced stay in L'aber'wrach while a new while a new one was made.
Hitting something like a container at night is a scary thought

 

[sailorman]

Don't insurers object to a system that doesn't discourage these losses? Or are instances so rare and relatively insignificant, it's more profitable not to trouble the shippers?

Meqrsk self insure

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Meqrsk self insure

Any large company will do that, except where insurance is a legal requirement. Even government institutions of medium size do it. Basically, if you're big enough (and "big enough means an annual turnover of a few million) it is cheaper to carry losses internally than to pay an insurance company.

I may be wrong on this, but isn't cargo separately insured by the owners of the cargo?

 

[Deleted member 36384]

I do not know about the Maersk shipping side, but the drilling side does not self insure. They are required to demonstrate adequate insurance cover when tendering for contracts. I used to think the same for major oil companies, now I know they do not self insure as I have been involved in many estimating exercises for insurance purposes (Exxon, Shell and Maersk). It is highly unlikely that Maersk shipping self insures as their customers and harbours will not want this liability. That is not to say that Maersk does not have a legal insurance arm with sufficient protected assets to cover liabilities, but I doubt it. They will demand insurance is in place for Maersk to use their facilities. In addition Maersk probably does not self finance, hence the people that they borrow money from will demand insurance. No one wants to find out that a self insured company cant pay out.

 

[Scillypete]

If however it is packed with computers which are padded in insulation foam , thre is possibly enough bouancy to keep it afloat indefinatelly.

It would be impossible to enforce a law requiring that no packaging can float.

Cita 1997 wrecked in Scilly, 147 containers scattered in various directions due to wind and tide, many came ashore (they didn't have far to go) some were recovered while still afloat by fishing boats claiming salvage. As it happens a container full of computers sank which was a shame as the ones with the keyboards and computer mice came ashore and were salvaged profitably by those making the effort to clean the mess up (locals). Those that drifted away did not stay afloat for long, but long enough to be a hazard for a day or two.

on the subject of insurance the ship will be insured by the owner operator somewhere convenient and the contents of each container will be individually insured by the owner of that cargo (unless things have changed since) so in the instance of the above wreck sorting out who was responsible for what was a nightmare, the shipping company paid very little and most of the insurers for the individual containers just washed their hands of it so our local council was left with a massive clean up bill that nobody would pay for . . . . . guess whose council tax went up after that

 

[charles_reed]

Empty containers, thank goodness, sink in fairly short order - the ones that are really dangerous are the ones containing polystyrene packaged goods, they'll float around for months, usually just below the surface.
However it's usually the higher levels, of empty containers, that get washed overboard, so the problem is pretty limited.

Regarding the "Cheeky Rafifi" tragedy - I'd await the MAIB report before venturing any opinion - the only point I'd make is that all the reports of high-aspect keel detachment cite a previous grounding or modification to the keel and, as far as I know, there are no reports of vessels being sunk by hitting a floating container.

So maybe it's an atavistic mariners' fear like giant squids and white whales that hunt one dowm