MacWester Rowan 22 long keel vs Westerly Cirrus 22 fin keel

[DangerousPirate]

Which one of these would you prefer for coastal and offshore sailing?

 

[Tranona]

Not sure about the "offshore" bit although either would be capable of cross channel in the right hands and right conditions. They were notionally competitors in their day although the Macwester has an older style hull shape and may therefore be less "sprightly" and was more expensive so built in small numbers.

Choice is personal and as ever when buying this type of boat more dependent on condition and equipment (particularly engine and sails) than any perceived difference in sailing capability.

 

[LittleSister]

I have sailed neither, but by reputation and various magazine reviews the Westerly will sail much better than the MacWester (faster, point higher), but is said to have an uncomfortably lively motion. The MacWesters are roomy (for their size & age) and well loved by their owners.

If you PM me I can provide an old review of the Cirrus.

p.s. And wot Tranona said ^^^, especially about condition & kit.

pps According to Hoskyns Yacht Directories A-Z Good Yacht Guide:
Macwester Rowan - LOA 22' 3", Beam 8' 3", Draft 3'3" (optional bilge plates) - Strong chunky long or triple keel cruiser. Simple roomy interior with good headroom. Useful but not sparkling performance. Sometimes home completed.
Westerly Cirrus - LOA 22', Beam 8', Draft 3' 6" - Fin keel cruiser with 6ft headroom in saloon and separate WC. Quite pleasing conventional lines and useful performance. The lack of a bilge keel alternative made the Cirrus perhaps less popular than some other Westerlies.

 

[DangerousPirate]

I do own a Cirrus at the moment but I am thinking about swapping to the MacWester as the condition is a bit better. With "offshore" I dont mean transatlantic, but going away from the coast a little, maybe crossing the channel, maybe some mediterranean sailing.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

Had a macwester 26ft. Very slow and would never ever tack in light airs or go well to windward. Very bad weather helm so many were fitted with bigger rudder at stern or bow sprits to bring sail load forward, as mine was. You would have thought that weather helm would make it auto tack but it simply slows it

Very steady and got Navigator used to long duration voyages, but as I said slow so that did not equate to long distance as we always missed the relevant tide gate.

A macwester problem even on the 30fter.

The Westerly is probably better but why go for such a small boat when a 26fter (such as the Centaur range) is faster steadier and more roomy for helmsman and crew and will barely cost more once equiped.

Buying a different boat look at radio, plotter sails etc.

Going foreign you need radio with dsc, gps and AIS reception, you may well be advised to get chart plotter,. You will be crossing busy shipping lanes maybe at night. So thats £1200 down.

Any new sails are at least a £1000 a pop, and thats your main power to move you

Engine - is it good for 30hour continuous?

 

[DangerousPirate]

I will have a closer look at it tomorrow. But thats discouraging me a little.

Well, the engine seems to be very well taken care of and in mint condition. (as seemingly the rest of the boat, but cant yet confirm. Only pictures seen yet).

The boat I found is in a very good condition and very close by, and also very cheap and it seems more comfortable.I didnt look for boats but a friend asked me for my opinion and it seems like a good swap. I wouldnt lose money on it.But I could save myself a lot of interior work.

Edit: What is causing the slow tack? Is it just a MacWester problem (hull) or is it a design (keel) problem?

 

[richardbrennan]

I had a trial sail in both these boats when they were new more years ago than I care to remember!

As has been said, the Westerly has a much better sailing performance and I ordered one. Westerly then stopped making the Cirrus and gave me a Tiger for the same money, which is a fine boat.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

I will have a closer look at it tomorrow. But thats discouraging me a little.

Well, the engine seems to be very well taken care of and in mint condition. (as seemingly the rest of the boat, but cant yet confirm. Only pictures seen yet).

The boat I found is in a very good condition and very close by, and also very cheap and it seems more comfortable.I didnt look for boats but a friend asked me for my opinion and it seems like a good swap. I wouldnt lose money on it.But I could save myself a lot of interior work.

Edit: What is causing the slow tack? Is it just a MacWester problem (hull) or is it a design (keel) problem?

Every one loses money on boats, you will be no exception. The question is will it give you what you want after you throw away all the ancient and life expired stuff ? It is cheap for a reason, however if its really the boat you want that is a good basis for upgrade. But is it? Go for a sail, look on line about macwesters etc

I think it is the weak early hull design of the macwesters that causes tacking issues and slow speeds. Such hulls are very buoyant but not ideal for sailing. The keels on mine were also far from ideal in shape. Whether that is the cause of poor windward ability I dont know. My macwester was undercanvased in my opinion, and when I fitted the bowsprit I should has added maybe 25% to my foresail while still leaving jib sheets to same point on track. Modern luff genoa would have been fine, but i could not afford it and was wanting a change.

 

[DangerousPirate]

Well, I wouldnt lose money in this trade. I know for certain. Even with new equipment.

Anyways. Thats why I am here. I am not sure if I want to keep the cirrus or swap for the macwester.

The cirrus needs a complete new headlining, the macwester doesnt need that and looks comfy on the inside. The Cirrus needs new Equipment (some of it is really old and I was going to replace it), the MacWester doesnt seem to need much except maybe a chartplotter. Neither the Cirrus nor the MacWester have any Solar Panels yet so I have to install it for both. The Cirrus points better, but the MacWester is more comfortable from the interior design. The Cirrus has twin berths, the MacWester has a big double berth.
Cirrus has Fin Keel, the MacWester has a Longkeel.

Buying the MacWester and equipping her would be about the same money as fitting out the cirrus, but a lot less work and the inside feels bigger on the MW.

Im not a racer, Im a cruiser/Liveaboard. Although I favour comfortability over speed I dont want to sail a brick either. So in many points I favour the MacWester. But I am not sure how noticable these close haul characteristics are when out and doing trips.

 

[LittleSister]

Though none of the Macwesters were greyhounds (but suited some people, especially for their volume, etc.), I've read the early bilge-keelers (perhaps others?) including the Macwester 26 had notably poor performance. Later models were designed with the benefit of tank testing, and were given slightly deeper, redesigned keels, so that the Macwester 27 (and perhaps other models?) was said to be a distinct improvement.

There is probably a Macwester Owners' Club and/or website and/or Facebook page which would be able to give you more details.

A friend had a 31' Macwester (Wight?), which had in previous ownership had left the UK and cruised the Med for a few years before returning, and he was extremely satisfied by it, though he was not the sort of person to be too concerned about sparkling performance.

 

[johnalison]

I had a Cirrus for a couple of years. She was a proper little ship and sailed like one. Although the Macwester should be sound enough, it is likely to be very much slower and better suited to local sailing. Any boat of that size is going to put more stress on its occupants on something like a Channel crossing than one of even 26', and the weather windows available will be fewer, but that doesn't mean it can't be done and enjoyed, in fact, the last Cirrus I went on belonged to a couple we met in Dives, Normandy. As far as I remember, stowage on the Cirrus was very good, as well as havingg the advantage of a bulkhead door.

 

[Tranona]

The Rowan 22 is a completely different design from the bigger, more well known 26, 27 and 30+ models. Designed by CSJ Roy who set up Macwester it was based on his smaller Kelpie design which like many of the early 1960s GRP designs was a GRP interpretation of a traditional long keel cruiser, but with the addition of bilge plates. Later expanded further to a 24 which sold quite well (my then boss bought one new in the early 1980s and kept it for the rest of his active life!). The tub like later boats were aimed at the new "boating caravan" market majoring on accommodation, whereas the Rowans were considered for the more discerning traditional market. From memory he also designed a 27 in the same vein but don't think many were built.

At the time a Crown was top of my list for a move up from my Seawych, although I actually went a bit left field with the Eventide (same hull/keel formula).

Judging by the photos of boats that have been on the market recently they seem to have worn well and still make good little pocket cruisers.

 

[DangerousPirate]

Macwester Rowan 22

Talking about this boat. The seller said its a long keel but it looks more like a triple keel on the pictures. But Its hard to tell. Ill see tomorrow. I do like the comfort, but the Cirrus is also quite roomey for the size. I just really like the double berth and wooden look the MacW has. Hm. Maybe Ifind a way to make a bigger sleeping area in the V berth of the cirrus. Probably have to DIY it.

Cant judge how terrible the tacking and close hauling is though. If its just a bit, well, I am not trying to race, that should be okay. But it sounds like it is quite a bit.

 

[Tranona]

The bilge plates wee optional as you can see here google.com/search?source=univ&tbm=isch&q=Macwester+Rowan+22&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwihqLyX57_xAhXIilwKHQWODVcQ7Al6BAgJECQ&biw=1920&bih=969 some boats have them and some don't

 

[oldmanofthehills]

The Rowan 22 is a completely different design from the bigger, more well known 26, 27 and 30+ models. Designed by CSJ Roy who set up Macwester it was based on his smaller Kelpie design which like many of the early 1960s GRP designs was a GRP interpretation of a traditional long keel cruiser, but with the addition of bilge plates. Later expanded further to a 24 which sold quite well (my then boss bought one new in the early 1980s and kept it for the rest of his active life!). The tub like later boats were aimed at the new "boating caravan" market majoring on accommodation, whereas the Rowans were considered for the more discerning traditional market. From memory he also designed a 27 in the same vein but don't think many were built.

At the time a Crown was top of my list for a move up from my Seawych, although I actually went a bit left field with the Eventide (same hull/keel formula).

Judging by the photos of boats that have been on the market recently they seem to have worn well and still make good little pocket cruisers.

Interesting and a bit more positive concerning the OPs query. The Mac 26 was the earliest, after the kelpie. However one must wonder why someone who could design good boats according to Tranona, might design a bit of tub.

I still think 22ft is too small for any medium distance cruising, having had an Anderson 22. The Rowan Crown at 24 might just about do it, but the Rowan 22 is advertised as a "weekender"

 

[DangerousPirate]

The bilge plates wee optional as you can see here google.com/search?source=univ&tbm=isch&q=Macwester+Rowan+22&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwihqLyX57_xAhXIilwKHQWODVcQ7Al6BAgJECQ&biw=1920&bih=969 some boats have them and some don't

Ah, I see. Well, then its not a triple keel but has bilge plates. Although Im not so sure what to think of them because my Fin is longer and balances my Westerly well. Not so sure about those.

Guess I will have to trial sail the boat, but I dont think the seller is going to do that for such a low price as it is on the hard right now.

I think Ill pass on this option and just fit out my boat instead. Glad I asked here before making myself unhappy.

 

[Tranona]

Interesting and a bit more positive concerning the OPs query. The Mac 26 was the earliest, after the kelpie. However one must wonder why someone who could design good boats according to Tranona, might design a bit of tub.

I still think 22ft is too small for any medium distance cruising, having had an Anderson 22. The Rowan Crown at 24 might just about do it, but the Rowan 22 is advertised as a "weekender"

Different market. The 26 (along with other similar boats such as Kingfishers, Snapdragons early Westerlys etc) were the first designed to take advantage of GRP and produce non boaty shapes rather than aping wooden boats and majoring on accommodation rather than sharp sailing ability. The market for traditional shaped boats continued for many years. Remember in its day a 22' 4 berth boat was mainstream for coastal cruising, particularly one with rufty tufty classic looks like the Rowan.

 

[Fanny Haddock]

Little late to the party but I'll vote for the MacWester for it's rudder (given our increasingly rope entangled waters), & how much I hate scrapping glue off cabin tops. I bought my last boat specifically because its headliner had already been replaced!

I think it's wrong to draw any references from the Mac 26 (as it was largely fixed with the deeper keel, bigger rigged 27).

If you're worried about "performance", you wouldn't be buying a 22' boat.

 

[graham]

Have you considered joining the Westerly Owners Association?

It costs £15 per year and you can save more than that through discounts they have arranged with various marinas ,suppliers and insurance company.

They have a mass of experience and advice you can tap into via their website.

 

[RupertW]

Going foreign you need radio with dsc, gps and AIS reception, you may well be advised to get chart plotter,. You will be crossing busy shipping lanes maybe at night. So thats £1200 down.

Fortunately you don’t need any of those. I thought about this sort of comment about 10 years ago when I bought an old 24 footer (GK24 as I’d loved owning one 20 years before). I wondered if the Channel could have changed from the days when a compass, echo sounder and paper charts did the job when crossing shipping lanes day or night without problems.

I did have GPS position on my phone and then lazily used Navionics on my phone too but no VHF of any kind, let alone AIS or chart plotter.

The gadgets are all good things but are in no sense necessary if you have a smart phone.