Lying a- hull in a storm

[Chris R]

Hi
Can I hear from anyone with experience of lying a - hull in a storm (No sail and all hatches closed)
I need to know how much water gets in through the main access hatch (which unlike other hatches doesn’t usually have any rubber seal )
I am assuming that with the hatch closed the amount of water getting in can be dealt with by the bilge pumps?
Or is it necessary to seal them in some way
Many thanks

 

[Wansworth]

From what I have seen modifications are made to the main hatch making a vertical door with locking handles at the corners.Having lain to a strong wind water can ingress but not uncontrollable.But probably all hatches are different .

 

[V1701]

Have a look at Sailing Wave Rover on Youtube - the mods he did with the entrance (on a Contessa 26) would be the sort of thing that would stop most ingress...

 

[RupertW]

As above it depends on your hatch - setting a hose on it from every angle will give some clue. But think about the other openings e.g engine vents and any above waterline fittings that could siphon.

The YM video on capsizing a boat in the Crash Test Boat series is very enlightening on the very many different ways water can get in even with all hatches shut.

Finally I really wouldn’t want to try it - we have been out in the Atlantic a couple of times in the last fortnight with just 45 knot prolonged gusts and when we tried to sail side on to the waves we we rolled a long way over by the breakers so in a storm I would want stern to the wind rather than a hull, which is why I had a drogue until I lost it last week.

 

[[163233]]

There's an MAIB report on a large-ish yacht that got in trouble in Biscay regarding companionway hatches.
https://assets.digital.cabinet-office.gov.uk/media/547c71bb40f0b6024100014d/Ocean_Madam.pdf

 

[Catalina36]

There's an MAIB report on a large-ish yacht that got in trouble in Biscay regarding companionway hatches.
https://assets.digital.cabinet-office.gov.uk/media/547c71bb40f0b6024100014d/Ocean_Madam.pdf

The main thing which comes out of reading that is not how to make the hatches watertight but don't find yourself out in conditions in which you need to lie a-hull in a storm. Setting off across Biscay in October with a forecast 7-8 is not what I would have called prudent.

 

[shaunksb]

Hi
Can I hear from anyone with experience of lying a - hull in a storm (No sail and all hatches closed)
I need to know how much water gets in through the main access hatch (which unlike other hatches doesn’t usually have any rubber seal )
I am assuming that with the hatch closed the amount of water getting in can be dealt with by the bilge pumps?
Or is it necessary to seal them in some way
Many thanks

It rather depends on the type and size of boat, if you really mean storm or gale and I assume deep (blue) water.

But if you are talking of a mid sized AWB in deep water in a force 10 lying a hull then I suppose after you’ve rolled 2 or 3 times and the mast has snapped and the remnants have punched a reasonable hole through the hull then on the 3 mile plunge down to the seabed you would probably get a maximum flow of about 0.5 ton/second once the hatch shatters.

Hope this helps.

____________________________

 

[Sea-Fever]

It rather depends on the type and size of boat, if you really mean storm or gale and I assume deep (blue) water.

But if you are talking of a mid sized AWB in deep water in a force 10 lying a hull then I suppose after you’ve rolled 2 or 3 times and the mast has snapped and the remnants have punched a reasonable hole through the hull then on the 3 mile plunge down to the seabed you would probably get a maximum flow of about 0.5 ton/second once the hatch shatters.

Hope this helps.

____________________________

Mean, funny and true all in one post.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

Do people still think lying a hull is a good storm tactic?

 

[Deleted member 478]

The main thing which comes out of reading that is not how to make the hatches watertight but don't find yourself out in conditions in which you need to lie a-hull in a storm. Setting off across Biscay in October with a forecast 7-8 is not what I would have called prudent.

Spot on.

 

[mikegunn]

Do people still think lying a hull is a good storm tactic?

i would never intentionally put myself in “survival” conditions, but should I get caught out I would put my faith in a parachute deployed from the bows rather than a drogue from the stern. I certainly wouldn’t be happy lying ahull. My feeling is that a vessel is more able to face a sea than run away from it. Almost zero chance of being pooped and unlikely to be rolled as long as it’s head’s facing the waves. Both systems depend on there being sufficient downwind searoom but the parachute anchor should reduce drift to less than one knot. Although I’ve carried a parachute anchor for nearly fifteen years I’ve never had to deploy it in anger, fortunately. I will concede however, that its recovery needs patience but hey, if it’s helped me through survival conditions, I’ll live with that.
Mike.

 

[Sea-Fever]

...with the added benefit that you can strap a parachute anchor on your back if you appear to be reaching the end of the earth and are about to fall off.

 

[mikegunn]

...with the added benefit that you can strap a parachute anchor on your back if you appear to be reaching the end of the earth and are about to fall off.

I’m glad you’ve acknowledged that the Earth is flat. I was beginning to have my doubts.
Mike

 

[William_H]

As a slight fred drift. Note that ocean racing requirements call for latches on front and main hatch that can be locked and unlocked from both inside and outside. ol'will

 

[Laminar Flow]

Well, since no one else has ... I have done this twice, on both instances in winds over F10. Once in a 50' lifting keel cutter, the other time in a traditional 43' long keel ketch. In neither instance did we take on any water and certainly not through the companion way hatch although we had seas breaking on deck.

I cannot recommend this tactic. In severe conditions I believe there is a serious risk of being rolled, particularly if the boat's roll period and sea state coincide. It is always better, IMHO, to carry some sail, it steadies the motion and helps keep the bows pointing up, a bit at least.

 

[geem]

I think the Jordan series drogue is accepted as one of the best devices for survival of storm conditions.

 

[jwilson]

I have done this, and cooked and eaten food in reasonable comfort, up to the point when it became obvious that as the conditions worsened we were in danger of being rolled by breaking wave tops, at which point we ran under bare pole. Later ended up keel in the air four times, but that's another story (in some earlier editions of "Heavy Weather Sailing"). We were ahull in a high ballast ratio beamy 34 ft cruiser-racer in the N Atlantic with no sail up, no rolled genao on forestay, and were steadily heeled about 30 plus degrees by the bare mast windage. I have some 35mm slides in the attic taken out of the hatch.

Lying ahull may work in some boats, particularly shallow draught ones that might slide sideways rather than be "tripped" into a roll by keel or gunwale when hurled sideways (and you can get an entire boat hurled sideways - I've felt it). It is not now the go-to storm tactic. Water through the hatch is your least worry when lying ahull.

 

[coopec]

As a slight fred drift. Note that ocean racing requirements call for latches on front and main hatch that can be locked and unlocked from both inside and outside. ol'will

If the cord on this latch continues into the cockpit it looks as though this companionway hatch could be opened from inside and outside.



Companionway Integrity In A Storm

 

[andsarkit]

I've not been out in extreme conditions but in an open sea force 8 I found lying beam on to the seas really scary with extreme rolling. I found a storm jib sheeted flat amidships was much more comfortable. The boat was moving slowly downwind with the seas on the quarter with very little water on the deck.
This was a small long keel boat and other boats will react differently so I think you just have to try different options and see what works. Now that I have roller reefing and a sprayhood I expect that the balance will have changed and I may need different tactics should I ever find myself in a similar position.

 

[RupertW]

The main thing which comes out of reading that is not how to make the hatches watertight but don't find yourself out in conditions in which you need to lie a-hull in a storm. Setting off across Biscay in October with a forecast 7-8 is not what I would have called prudent.

That’s fine if you are going to limit yourself to shortish ocean sails but really you need to be as confident as possible in your boat in nastier conditions.