bikedaft
Well-known member
The Loss of Solution on Return Delivery - Newport Bermuda Race
a sobering read. could happen to any of us.
a sobering read. could happen to any of us.
Loss of yacht Solution (USA) - holes in the cheese align.
- Thread starter bikedaft
- Start date
Major_Clanger
Well-known member
That is a very sobering read, nice boat too.
Fuel filters should always be mounted somewhere accessible. I'm surprised he didn't at least try to change them, it could have changed the whole situation. Being thrown about and chucking-up in the bilge would have been worth it.
Fuel filters should always be mounted somewhere accessible. I'm surprised he didn't at least try to change them, it could have changed the whole situation. Being thrown about and chucking-up in the bilge would have been worth it.
Stemar
Well-known member
This should not be taken as a criticism of the skipper or crew, just musings based on 20/20 hindsight.
ISTM that there's a strong argument for having easily accessible spin-on filters, preferably a pair mounted in parallel, on a blue water boat - or any boat for that matter, so a blocked filter can be changed while the engine's running. Reading between the lines, I would speculate that the 20 minutes to change the filter and get the engine running would be something like five to change the filter and 15 to bleed the system, using the engine pump If so, a bulb pump between the tank and the filters, would hugely reduce the time needed to get the engine running.
Would that have saved the boat? Who knows, quite possibly not. Let's just be thankful no one was killed or seriously injured.
ISTM that there's a strong argument for having easily accessible spin-on filters, preferably a pair mounted in parallel, on a blue water boat - or any boat for that matter, so a blocked filter can be changed while the engine's running. Reading between the lines, I would speculate that the 20 minutes to change the filter and get the engine running would be something like five to change the filter and 15 to bleed the system, using the engine pump If so, a bulb pump between the tank and the filters, would hugely reduce the time needed to get the engine running.
Would that have saved the boat? Who knows, quite possibly not. Let's just be thankful no one was killed or seriously injured.
RunAgroundHard
Well-known member
Not sure it could happen to any of us, as the boats planks may have opened. Reading “Total Loss” this pops up from time to time, most GRP hulls would not face this issue. The filter thing is not the point, in my opinion, as the boat could have sailed out of the danger, but she crossed the Gulf Stream boundary layer, which is a rough place.
Juan Twothree
Well-known member
It still surprises me that the USCG winching method involves the casualties jumping into the sea.
RunAgroundHard
Well-known member
A desperate need for dramatic heroism demonstrated ostentatiously. Unlike “hanging on in desperation is the English way”.
Sandy
Well-known member
They have solved the winching a different way. They use swimmers and baskets rather than a winch person and a strop.
When a member of a Mountain Rescue Team I politely declined the invitation to be winched up to a 22 Sqn Sea King, the ONLY way I could do that is dosed up to well above my eyeballs on morphine.
My climbing partner was winched in to an aircraft after a serious fall in Italy, his comment was they did not give him enough morphine.
pmagowan
Well-known member
I have sailed mostly on wooden boats and had the seams open up in rough seas on a few occasions. It sounds like this boat was well looked after and they did what they could given the circumstances. I had water above the floorboards in the middle of the night under sail to St Kilda as she loomed out of the darkness. Small electric bilge pumps did less than the manual job! The only thing was to turn around and put her on the other tack so that the seam that was being opened was now in compression rather than tension of the rig. That did enough. When back at home port some sawdust under the hull filled the seam and stemmed the leak.
We were at sea for 32 hours with myself and father for crew. Our engine had also given up due to sloshing when a bit low on fuel but I was able to restart it after filling the tanks from Jerry cans although the deck became treacherous with the spillages that occur when in breaking seas. A Racor fuel filter and a bulb I had installed made things a lot easier. It was an old wooden boat so to be honest I was not overly surprised and we just got on with it, these things happen. If 200 miles from land things may have been different.
My take home was that you need a very good engine system with double Racor filters. Most importantly you need a way of detecting a leak early so that you can identify where is stems from and take action.
Fair play to the skipper here who did what he could but didn’t get precious when it came time to make the decision of risk to crew or boat.
We were at sea for 32 hours with myself and father for crew. Our engine had also given up due to sloshing when a bit low on fuel but I was able to restart it after filling the tanks from Jerry cans although the deck became treacherous with the spillages that occur when in breaking seas. A Racor fuel filter and a bulb I had installed made things a lot easier. It was an old wooden boat so to be honest I was not overly surprised and we just got on with it, these things happen. If 200 miles from land things may have been different.
My take home was that you need a very good engine system with double Racor filters. Most importantly you need a way of detecting a leak early so that you can identify where is stems from and take action.
Fair play to the skipper here who did what he could but didn’t get precious when it came time to make the decision of risk to crew or boat.
geem
Well-known member
We have a sounder on our main bilge pump. It runs every time the pump runs. We only get concerned if it doesn't turn off! Every part of the boat drains to this main bilge pump, located in a sump over the keel between the two inbuilt tanks (diesel and water).
There are 3 additional electric pumps including one emergency pump. All on float switches.
The fuel system has 1/4 turn fuel filters. Both easily accessible. You can swap them in 30 seconds. Self bleeding fuel system with electric pump. In addition, we vacuum the bottom of the fuel tank every 6 months to remove any crud.
I never see the point of a high level bilge alarm. Your bilge pump is the alarm. Just fit a sounder to it that can be heard in the cockpit. Being a 24v boat, I fitted a lorry reversing sounder. It's loud
Juan Twothree
Well-known member
I've been on a few jobs with RAF (and now Bristows) helicopters where they've had to winch from an awkward location, and we used a hi-line as opposed to winching from directly overhead.
It worked every time with no problems. The only potential issue is that you need someone on the vessel to manage the hi-line.
bikedaft
Well-known member
the newer helo's have greater downdraft, e.g. S92, - hence they do prefer a hi line.
it's not that difficult to manage if you have not done it before - just don't tie it to anything(!) - it mostly is to stop the winchman from spinning.
pmagowan
Well-known member
My bilge pumps have always been monitored but on a boat of our type it was not unusual for the pump to cycle off and on in any case. The boat was always a bit leaky from above and below and routinely we would count the strokes of the manual pump (which went deeper than the automatic) when we arrived at a destination. This would let us know if there was any significant change in the natural flow of things. We now, also have a plastic boat with a dry bilge. I would want to know immediately if there was water and where it came from. I intend to fit sensors in each compartment of the bilge to achieve this. A small amount of arduino (or other uC) fiddling should be able to give an indication of which compartment any inundation came from and hence which through-hull or area we should look to first. In a flooding the key is rapid identification of where the water is coming from and stemming it. No pump will save you from even a modest leak as pumps have remarkably low volume output in comparison to a broken through-hull etc and all pumps fail eventually. We have had many an occasion when our pumps failed in routine operation either because of a bit of dirt or just their rather hostile environment. I consider the pulps to be a way of tidying up after the event rather than a way of saving us from the event. Find it, fix it, tidy up.
Juan Twothree
Well-known member
Not just don't tie it to anything, make sure it doesn't get hooked up on anything either.
Best advice is to coil the line into a bucket or empty fish box.
Although if it does, it's not nearly so serious as the actual winch wire getting snagged, and the helicopter crew having to cut it with the emergency button.
They really don't find that funny at all.
It wasn't me though
geem
Well-known member
My four pumps are sized to cope with the loss of a skin fitting. That is the reason why I have four pumps. The pump in the deep sump functions as the alarm. The bow area is behind a crash bulkhead. The bulkhead is fitted with a 3/4" through hull to a pipe that runs all the way to the main sump. Same in the rear bulkhead where the rudder shaft is. By lifting the floor panel by the main sump, you can see if the front or rear pipes are flowing or if the water is entering the bilge from the port or starboard side. This is enough to narrow down the location of a leak.
I use Rule bilge pumps. They have proven to be reliable pumps for many years
pmagowan
Well-known member
I use Rule pumps also. They seem reasonable but no pump puts out its rated capacity in the real world so worth testing. On a deep dive into this subject I concluded that only an engine driven high capacity pump was likely to keep up with any serious leak. Engines and batteries fail and often at the wrong time such as when they are being sloshed about with sea water. Old wet wooden boats and dry plastic boats with watertight bulkheads are different things. I don’t rely on pumps to get me out of trouble but certainly better having them than not. The Lidl electric trash pumps have come in handy in the past and they do move a lot of water. Used at the dock to keep afloat!
pmagowan
Well-known member
Looking at the numbers the biggest Rule pump is 15140 L/h which in real world should achieve about half or 7570 L/h. A 1.5inch through-hull 1m below the waterline will let in about 12000 L/h. So with 2 of these large pumps fitted well you should at least keep up with it. If your through-hull is 2” then 20000 L/h so 3 pumps. Of course if the pumps have long hoses or significant rise or the battery is less than 13.6v then they could achieve significantly less than half rated capacity. Of trash enters bilge in emergency situation them pump could stop quite suddenly. That pump also sucks 15.5A.
geem
Well-known member
The pumps are rated for smooth bore pipe lifting a certain head at a certain voltage. All of this is great data and you can calculate the actual lift these pumps will do. I did the calculations and sized the pumping capacity based on the data, allowing for the pipe loses and the vertical lift. It helps that as a young engineer, I used to do these calculations by hand, before computers.
We also have lithium batteries so we don't suffer voltage sag like you do when you put lead batteries under load.
I can imagine that it's quite a different issue in wooden boats. The constant running bilge alarm would be a pain if wired the same as mine but on a plastic boat, it works very well
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lusitano
Active member
"Nothing moves water like an anxious man with a bucket !"
geem
Well-known member
But not much use in a crisis when the one man is the total crew. He is best employed finding the leak and dealing with whilst the pumps do their best to remove as much water as possible. A totally different issue on a boat with plentry of crew. With 2" hole in the bottom you can see up to 20,000 litres of inflow per hour. That bucket won't do much
Stemar
Well-known member
Maybe, but many (most?) here aren't in their first flush of youth, so for how long?
If I ever have a leak that the pumps can't deal with, and that I can't fix with a bung, and I risk sinking before I can beach the boat, the next thing is to press the red button and get ready to abandon to the flubber.
