Looking for & Comparing Boats Do STATS help?

[Uricanejack]

Boat comparisons.

Just Idol speculation on my part. Not in my immediate plans. But?

I was contemplating buying a boat in the UK sailing it for a while and selling it later. This of course is a stupid plan owning one boat is less than wise owning two is definitely stupid.

So comparing boats. Stats from the internet sailboat data

I like my boats size, it works for my wife and I. I enjoy it sailing qualities. It's a relatively light quick boat from the mid 80's. I chose it because I could pay for it. Also because I was familiar with sailing other boats by same company. I knew it would suit my purpose

My budget would indicate I would be choosing from similar vintage in the UK so what to choose?
A comparison between my boat and couple of popular boats available in the UK. I have never sailed a Sadler or a Benetaux. Or any other modern designs typically found in the UK.

Can looking at stats give me an idea which boats may suit me best? I skipped some like engine size fuel and water.

Sorry This was supposed to be a simple table comparing my boat to a Sadler and a First 345. It didn't work very well.

Stats My boat C&C Sadler 34 Ben 345
Hull/ Fin, Fin Fin
Rudder Spade Skeg Spade ?
Rig Masthead Sloop Masthead sloop Masthead Sloop ?
LOA 34.67ft 10.57m 34.75'/10.59m 34.5'/10.52m ?
LWL 28ft /8.53m 27.83/8.48 29.17'/8.89m ?
Beam 11.17 / 3.40m 10.75/3.28 11.42/3.48 ?
Draft 6.08'/1.85m 5.83/1.78 6.2'/1.89m ?
Displacement 10825lbs/ 4910kgs 12800lbs/5806kg 10141lbs/4600kg ?


Not so sure about these ratios but what the heck

SailArea/Disp 18.80 14.55 17.54 ?
Bal/Disp 41.57 39.06 45.37 ?
Disp/lenth 220.14 265.11 182.4 ?

Bal type Lead Iron

I (IG) 46.30'/14.11m 42.81/13.05 44.0'/13.41
J 13.6/4.14m 12.99/3.96 12.90'/3.69m
P 41.3/12.59 36.98/11.27 37.80/11.52m
E 12.50/3.81 11.81/3.60 12.1'/3.69m

SA(Fore) 34.84/29.25m 278.05/25.83 283.8'/26.37m
SA (Main) 258/23.98 218.37/20.29 228.69'/21.25m
(100% fore+main)572.97/53.23m 496.42/46.12 512.49/47.61m
Sail area/Disp 18.80 14.57 17.56
Mast height 50.5/15.39 44.74/13.64m
EstForstay legnth 48.26/14.71 44.74/13.64 45.85'/13.98m

Do I understand what it all means? not really

Can I make a few conclusions based on the stats?

I intend to sail coastal around the UK particularly West Coast Scotland. I like my boat. there won't be any in the UK and I would not be interest in sailing across the NA.

The Benetaux is much more similar to my boat than the Sadler. I could probably figure this out without the stats. It's a little bit more modern design, should be the most competitive. But Sadler's have a good rep, I am a cruiser not a racer, I don't intend to race.

The Benetaux has the longest WLL so probably the fastest. Probably noticeably faster than my boat and my boat is probably a just a bit faster than the Sadler.

Displacement, The Benny is quite a bit lighter than my boat, My boat is almost a lot lighter than the Sadler.
Beam Benny is the widest and the Sadler is quite a lot narrower than both.

Draft Benny and my boat very similar the Sadler a bit less. The Fin Keel and Skeg is a significant difference.
My boat has the most sail area, tallest rig, the Benny not far behind the Sadler quite a lot bit less sail area.

So I should pick a benny.

The Benny will be better in most of the conditions I will sail in. Particularly in lighter winds.

Once the wind gets up a bit, the Sadler will start to keep up. Probably reef a bit later. But I don't reef till F4 or F5. Will a Sadler wait much Longer?

The Sadler, the heaviest, will probably not pound as much.

Sailing the west of Scotland Gale force is not uncommon. The Sadler may be better in early and late season.

For some odd reason I like the Sadler. I might be a bit frustrated some days. Possibly even most days.

Are the STATS useful?
I can tell I am looking a two quite different boats. Which I sort of knew anyway.

Other boats, Jeneau, Westerly, Sigma, Bavaria, I've never sailed any of them. Looking at the STATS should give me an idea.

In the end what my wife thinks about the cushions might be more important. True fully, I bought my current boat because of its size and to sail it. Comfort was lower down the list. If I was intending an extended cruise in UK waters, Comfort is higher up the list of priorities. So the state of the cushions may be important to me to.
In the end. I'm not sure I will go with the Stats.

Would you find them useful? Do my conclusions make sense?

 

[KellysEye]

It depends what build quality you want C&C and Sadler are better built than Benetteaus and other AWBs. If you do want a lighter build from experience Jenneaus are better upwind than Benneteaus because they have deeper keel but check that if you intend to buy one them it may have changed.

 

[Uricanejack]

No. The Stats don't tell you much about quality.

 

[Tranona]

The main ratios you have looked at are indeed useful for comparison.

As a generality, over the last 30 years the following have changed. Disp/L has fallen, ballast ratios have fallen, SA/Disp have tended to rise. The norm of heavier displacement in the past was because hull shapes relied less on form stability (narrower, deeper and slacker bilges) and boats (even small ones) and at least in the UK were assumed to be used in all weathers by hardy (male?) crews. Bit tongue in cheek there but you get the picture.

Around 30 years ago builders (particularly French) realised that owners were not wanting to use their boats in that way (remember the market in the Med was just taking off) so designed boats that were lighter, better in light airs and had superior accommodation. Unsurprisingly these boats also found a ready market in the UK where the trend was towards family sailing rather than a gungho male activity.

You can see these changes with your comparison between a Sadler and a Beneteau - but in a way you don't need the stats to tell you that. Your real question is which would suit you. The thing is that effectively you have not been able to buy a new boat of the older style since about 1990 and thousands of newer style, lighter displacement boats have been bought and used all round our coasts. in fact one of the pioneers and most successful Jeanneau dealer was in Scotland.

It is fair to say that older style boats are generally better in heavier weather - don't bounce around as much and usually better at making progress to wind in those conditions. Downsides are often cramped accommodation for size, lack of modern amenities and sometimes rigs that are hard work. Plus of course age means many need work.

On the other hand newer style boats under 30' tend to be rather lively in comparison and perhaps not at their best in heavier conditions. This difference tends to reduce as boats get bigger, although a different approach to sailing is perhaps need. More lightly ballasted boats with bigger sail areas (for light airs performance) need reefing earlier, and above about 35' in mast is popular to make this easier.

Realistically any of the boats you quote will do what you want. There is nothing particularly demanding about cruising around the UK - we do it all the time in a wide variety of boats. If your plans are to marina hop or use sheltered deep water moorings then go for the cushions approach. If you want to explore some of the more out of the way places and use shallow rivers or working harbours then you might want to look at a rugged shallow draft boat.

You don't say what your budget would be, nor the size of boat. These are important as they determine the choice that is open to you.

 

[KellysEye]

> Unsurprisingly these boats also found a ready market in the UK where the trend was towards family sailing rather than a gungho male activity.

That's true sailing was mainly a male preserve but Benetteau decided to build a boat with a large aft cabin which was immediately attractive to women and sales of that type of boat took off.

 

[Tranona]

> Unsurprisingly these boats also found a ready market in the UK where the trend was towards family sailing rather than a gungho male activity.

That's true sailing was mainly a male preserve but Benetteau decided to build a boat with a large aft cabin which was immediately attractive to women and sales of that type of boat took off.

Rather simplistic. There were plenty of boats with large aft cabins before Beneteau became a big player. Think of all the Westerlys and Moodys, among others that majored on aft cabins dating back to the 1970s.

It was far more than that - finish, easier sailing, space, better equipment and of course price. Simply better for family sailing and better value for money. And of course once people discovered how good they were (and 30% cheaper than older style boats) there was no stopping them.

 

[dunedin]

A Beneteau First 345 will be getting on a bit now - but were great boats. I thought it was nearer 36ft, but certainly spacious and sails very well.
Must be tough and seaworthy as one was cruised for years up to very high latitudes successfully. Ergainly quite a differnt boat form later Benetaux

 

[Tranona]

A Beneteau First 345 will be getting on a bit now - but were great boats. I thought it was nearer 36ft, but certainly spacious and sails very well.
Must be tough and seaworthy as one was cruised for years up to very high latitudes successfully. Ergainly quite a differnt boat form later Benetaux

That is an important point. Although the design trends have changed, not all AWBs are the same and in many ways the stats are most useful in sorting out where a boat sits amongst its peers. For example, the SA/Displ ratio is a measure of how much power is available from the sails. The First was a sporty machine with a ratio of 17.54 compared with an Oceanis 350 of the same era at 15.65. The First was also more IOR influenced with a keel much narrower at the tip than the root meaning a higher COG so had a Ballast ratio of 45% to enable it to exploit the greater sail area.

These peer comparisons are valid with older boats as designers and builders tend to aim boats at particular types of use, but you tend to find boats aimed at the same market have similar stats. This is perhaps most obvious in the mainstream cruiser market where there is a tendency to a mean leading to a possible conclusion that they are all the same. Not too different from cars.

Builders therefore try to differentiate their offerings in other ways than the basic design stats, and today this tends to be around interior design and equipment, recognising that the decision is often made by the female half of the crew. That becomes obvious if you eavesdrop on conversations at boat shows! Interior designers nowadays get as much of a billing as the person who drives the computer to design the rest of the boat!

 

[Uricanejack]

The main ratios you have looked at are indeed useful for comparison.

As a generality, over the last 30 years the following have changed. Disp/L has fallen, ballast ratios have fallen, SA/Disp have tended to rise. The norm of heavier displacement in the past was because hull shapes relied less on form stability (narrower, deeper and slacker bilges) and boats (even small ones) and at least in the UK were assumed to be used in all weathers by hardy (male?) crews. Bit tongue in cheek there but you get the picture.

Around 30 years ago builders (particularly French) realised that owners were not wanting to use their boats in that way (remember the market in the Med was just taking off) so designed boats that were lighter, better in light airs and had superior accommodation. Unsurprisingly these boats also found a ready market in the UK where the trend was towards family sailing rather than a gungho male activity.

You can see these changes with your comparison between a Sadler and a Beneteau - but in a way you don't need the stats to tell you that. Your real question is which would suit you. The thing is that effectively you have not been able to buy a new boat of the older style since about 1990 and thousands of newer style, lighter displacement boats have been bought and used all round our coasts. in fact one of the pioneers and most successful Jeanneau dealer was in Scotland.

It is fair to say that older style boats are generally better in heavier weather - don't bounce around as much and usually better at making progress to wind in those conditions. Downsides are often cramped accommodation for size, lack of modern amenities and sometimes rigs that are hard work. Plus of course age means many need work.

On the other hand newer style boats under 30' tend to be rather lively in comparison and perhaps not at their best in heavier conditions. This difference tends to reduce as boats get bigger, although a different approach to sailing is perhaps need. More lightly ballasted boats with bigger sail areas (for light airs performance) need reefing earlier, and above about 35' in mast is popular to make this easier.

Realistically any of the boats you quote will do what you want. There is nothing particularly demanding about cruising around the UK - we do it all the time in a wide variety of boats. If your plans are to marina hop or use sheltered deep water moorings then go for the cushions approach. If you want to explore some of the more out of the way places and use shallow rivers or working harbours then you might want to look at a rugged shallow draft boat.

You don't say what your budget would be, nor the size of boat. These are important as they determine the choice that is open to you.

Sise? around 35ft give or take. Budget is harder to say. Not sure yet. Quite flexible. Might be up to 20K Might be up to 30. And to a large extent on what sort of hit I can afford since I don't intend to keep a boat for a long term.
Use coastal. Some marina lot of anchoring. Plan not realistic yet. Time constraints just don't allow for it quite yet.
Lots of things aren't in the stats, Heating, Anchor winch, Dodger, All variables with particular boat.
The Sadler and the First I picked as to common but quite different examples. The Sadler a couple of years ago would have been to expensive. Now the prices I see asked are in my ball park. A lot of other boats are bit cheaper.

Would I enjoy sailing a Sadler as much as a First or a Jeneau? When in the Uk, I sail with family on a 50 year old Bill Gardner. I enjoy sailing it.

Things have changed, but an up to date modern boat, although nice. Would be way to much for my budget.
I don't think its just the wife's perspective pushed the changes, Although I like my boat. I also considered a similar vintage Catalina 34. I Chartered them back in the day. The Cabin at ether end makes a nicer layout an option if you have a couple of friends. I usually sail myself or with just my wife and kids so just a quarter berth works ok. But I certainly see the appeal of a boat with an aft cabin.

To a large extent my thought is to sail the boat I can afford today rather than dream of tomorrow . Yes It is dreaming. But I am dreaming about the time I can afford. And I still have some places to go here. So back to my principle about sailing the boat I can afford today. I may go quite a bit smaller. With a longer term and shorter stint sailing in Uk, Under 30ft finding a place to store it would be a lot more affordable.

 

[armchairsailor]

Don't forget ease of resale - if aiming to not lose out too much then it's got to be moved on promptly and for a good price (least loss at any rate).


FWIW. I think the Sadler will be most like your C&C in character. They're also good sailing boats. I lusted after a 29 as a first boat. I raced a 25 in F6-8 in the forth estuary around the islands - lumpy short seas and we broached the thing flat under the bridge. She didn't give me a second's worry, oddly enough. We slammed her for the first time in the owners memory and I she just carried on going. We also touched 10kts for a second whilst surfing under genoa only. Great fun on a great boat.

Or you could just go around the top in your own boat... ��

 

[Tranona]

With a top budget of £30k you won't get much choice of a fully functioning "modern" boat of 35'. You might get an early Beneteau or Jeanneau, but few were imported into the UK until the 1990s and tend to start around £40k.

You will, however have a good choice of boats like Sadler 34, Westerly Falcon and Discus, Moody 33, 33S and 34 from the late 1970s and 1980s. Many more of similar type, but these are just examples of the most common.