Looking at Traders: mad, or what?

[MapisM]

Before anyone mention it, yes, I do remember Paul's (Gludy) saga with the purchase of Ocean Deep, a brand new Trader 575 which turned into one of his worst boating nightmare about 10 years ago.
And IIRC, while some (most?) of his troubles were connected with the UK importer/distributor of the thing, he also had several complaints related to construction quality, which obviously have to see with the actual Taiwan builder (Kha Shing) and therefore potentially affecting all of their boats, regardless of how poor/good the commissioning and post-delivery support can be.

All that said, I came across a few of their 535 and 575 models (basically the same boat, the latter being 1m longer) which are for sale, and I must admit that they look appealing in some ways, particularly in terms of internal spaces and liveaboard usage.
Ok, appealing in aesthetic terms they surely aren't - in this respect, they are possibly the worst of all boats I recently considered - but that ain't a big issue for us.
And they are nowhere near as fast as pure P boats of course, but if I were interested in cruising speed I would have been wrong for my last 15 years of boating...
...OTOH, most Traders are fitted with stabs, which are practically impossible to find in any 10+ years old P boat.

So, bearing in mind what I said at the beginning, and considering that with used boat the lack of dealer support/warranty is not a problem anymore, I'm wondering if I'd better forget Traders no matter what, or if they are worth a look, after all.
In fact, I've never seen one in flesh, and unfortunately none of those for sale are within easy reach.

Bottom line, back to the thread title: what do you guys think? Mad, or what?

 

[petem]

Well I don't think the sea bed of the world's oceans are littered with sunken Traders so they can't all have been bad. Surely any half competent surveyor could spot a disastrous one?

 

[Sandy Bottom]

I don't think that you are 'mad' Mapism - you're being realistic. For a large high volume boat there are some relative bargains amongst the Traders if (like me) you looking for 'normal' size living space as per a cottage rather than short-term holidaying.
I did hear a report from someone 'in the trade' (he posts on here so I won't embarrass him) that in tough conditions they can be roll to the extent of wondering if you're ever going to get back - but they mostly seem to!
But I think that you would have to be realistic and accept that any Trader you bought now is already old and in 10 - 15 years time might be almost worthless (base value) - I have been watching them for a couple of years and there are lots of them on the market, some having been there a long time!

That 70' one has dropped a lot - lot of volume for the dosh!
Steve

 

[BruceK]

I have my eye on a 535 that's local. She's gorgeous afaik. I don't think you are mad at all.

 

[Mr Googler]

Have a chat with maybh1 of the forum. They have had a trader for many years. No idea if they still have it but lots of direct knowledge.

My experience is that they are a solid old beast and can confirm they do roll like the proverbial pig. Perhaps that's why you find so many with stabs

 

[admillington]

Before anyone mention it, yes, I do remember Paul's (Gludy) saga with the purchase of Ocean Deep, a brand new Trader 575 which turned into one of his worst boating nightmare about 10 years ago.
And IIRC, while some (most?) of his troubles were connected with the UK importer/distributor of the thing, he also had several complaints related to construction quality, which obviously have to see with the actual Taiwan builder (Kha Shing) and therefore potentially affecting all of their boats, regardless of how poor/good the commissioning and post-delivery support can be.

All that said, I came across a few of their 535 and 575 models (basically the same boat, the latter being 1m longer) which are for sale, and I must admit that they look appealing in some ways, particularly in terms of internal spaces and liveaboard usage.
Ok, appealing in aesthetic terms they surely aren't - in this respect, they are possibly the worst of all boats I recently considered - but that ain't a big issue for us.
And they are nowhere near as fast as pure P boats of course, but if I were interested in cruising speed I would have been wrong for my last 15 years of boating...
...OTOH, most Traders are fitted with stabs, which are practically impossible to find in any 10+ years old P boat.

So, bearing in mind what I said at the beginning, and considering that with used boat the lack of dealer support/warranty is not a problem anymore, I'm wondering if I'd better forget Traders no matter what, or if they are worth a look, after all.
In fact, I've never seen one in flesh, and unfortunately none of those for sale are within easy reach.

Bottom line, back to the thread title: what do you guys think? Mad, or what?

Not mad at all - look how many there are sailing around very happily.

Boats.co.uk have one in stock - i.e. they own it - I believe it was up for sale in Wales for a load of dosh but they have purchased it. It was next to me in Lymington for a week and clearly needs some work but with those bullet proof engines and stabs it will be a good buy for someone.

http://www.boats.co.uk/boats-for-sale/trader-64-sunliner-1469


I along with the 2 ex Fairline owners now Princess deal with James Barke - let me know if you need his mobile - you can always do a deal with James!

 

[sharpness]

https://youtu.be/UWSBWTLOqSo

Great looking boats i think (youtube link of one above), but you can see that they have a tendency to roll.

 

[Portofino]

MapisM +Treader+ Med = Mad

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Not mad M, you just have to understand what you're getting. I had a friend who had a Trader 41+2 in the UK and I went on it many times. On the plus side it was incredibly roomy both inside and out. A real party boat. Also on the plus side it was really easy to get around on the outside with wide side decks and an enormous cockpit. The teak inside was also superb although very classic in style. On the minus side it was slow even with quite large engines and as a result thirstier than a similar size of planing boat. IMHO its the kind of boat you'd mostly drive at D speeds and only use P/SD speeds when you really need to otherwise you'll be burning a lot of fuel. It also kicked up a lot of spray and we used to joke about our friend having to wear waterproofs when helming from the flybridge when the rest of us were wearing tee shirts.. Also it rolled a lot even at planing speeds. This Trader didn't have stabs but I would think they are almost essential. I don't recall my friend having any particular reliability issues with his boat although he wasn't very happy with the stainless steelwork which was substandard and starting to corrode. Needless to say, Mr Chappell was not remotely interested

I believe that Traders still have a good following in the used market so certainly plenty of people like them

 

[Newbroom]

I owned a Trader 575 for quite a few years I had no major complaints with it as regarding sea keeping. At the end of the day its a semi displacement hull its going to roll a little, and they are reasonably economical at displacement speeds. I crossed the bay of Biscay non stop from Guernsey to the Med with no worries.
I also have delivered numerous Traders from the 41+2 to the 70ft out to the med and back to the UK and the only one which needed stabilizers was the 70ft. I have crossed the Bay of Biscay with a 575 in an uncomfortable force 6 to 7 with no real concerns. The best of the lot for water line length and sea keeping seemed to be the 47ft .
All in all I would have another one if I could afford one.

 

[MapisM]

Thanks everybody for your contributions, I appreciate.
A few comments following the order of your posts:

@ admillington: thanks for the pointer, but the 64 is above the limit myself and swmbo gave ourselves in terms of size to clean/handle/take care of, etc.

@ sharpness: re. "great looking boat", you must be joking!?! I can see several reasons for considering a Trader, but their look surely isn't one of them...

@ portofino: not sure to see what you mean. 'Course an Itama is much better for Med day trips in glorious weather, but what I'm after is a boat for living aboard 6 months or more each year, and in this respect if you can name me one which is much better than the 535/575 (at comparable sizes of course), I'm all ears.

@ Deleted User: yep, all understood & agreed. Fuel burn at more than D speed is not something I'm much worried about - I would use her at D speed most of the time anyway, and with fin stabs I suppose she can only be better than any non-stabilized P boat.
Besides, the Wesmar stabs installed in most of the Traders seem to be upgradable to zero speed, which would be a significant additional bonus, though I'm not yet sure about such possibility (and its cost).
Otoh, poor s/steel quality sounds worrying - I'll keep that in mind if and when I'll see one in flesh.

@ iledesprit: thanks for reporting your experience, I'll send you a pm with a more personal question.

 

[Nigelpickin]

We are travelling with friends at present, us in planing mobo and them in stabilised 535, (ocean spirit), so we are getting pretty acquainted with their boat. I'll leave Richard to contribute first hand but in my opinion, it's a great sea boat and as mentioned, volumous beyond anything else I've seen at 16m.

In terms of roll, I imagine that there's lots of weight low down in the centre of the centre line and that might have a weebles wobble effect, (you had to be a UK kid in the 70's for that reference), but we've not seen this in the many hours that we've been following the trader as the stabilisers are always on. Indeed, coming out of Cap Ferrett the trader completely showed up the local fishing fleet, plenty of pitch but zero roll, even with the bonkers beam on swell.
About minute 1:10
https://youtu.be/dD22FrnN4IE
Ocean spirit seems to be getting slightly better than 1nm per G and that's pushing 8.5 to 10kts but it's a huge boat and ima sure the numbers will be better once we've stopped having to rush.
For context, we are traveling at similar speeds in Breaking Bad when Biscay allows and getting 2.5 to 3lt per nm, but our boat is made out of sugar paste and paper by comparison!!
As for the stainless steel, it looks awesom on this boat, really good condition now that it's been cleaned and obviously puts anything on a boat like mine to shame.

If I change boats in the next couple of years a late 535 would definitely be on my list, but then so would a sailing cat so what do I know!

Look forward to hearing about your evolving decision....

Oh and as for looks, from any front quarter angle I think hat the boat looks very impressive, from behind its a bit Howls Moving Castle, but has all the more personality for that

 

[MapisM]

LOL, "sabboatical", love that! :encouragement:
...not to mention the anchoring technique of the lovely lady at 0:45 - I hope you don't mind if that made me laugh a bit!

On a more serious note, many thanks for your views, interesting reading indeed.
Btw, I agree (and also my wife does, which says a lot!) that the boat ain't so fugly overall, if it weren't for the stern, that is really hard to digest. :ambivalence:

Just one Q, waddumean by "having to rush"?

Ocean spirit seems to be getting slightly better than 1nm per G and that's pushing 8.5 to 10kts but it's a huge boat and ima sure the numbers will be better once we've stopped having to rush.

According to some numbers I found on the web, both the 535 and the 575 should manage (with C12 Cats) 22 to 24kts WOT, with the capability to cruise at high teens. So, 8.5 to 10 knots doesn't seem such a rush!
Mind, that's the speed I would also cruise at most of the time, so the fact that at higher speed the fuel burn is bound to be ridiculously higher is not a major concern...

 

[Nigelpickin]

See what you mean, to clarify, best return on usable speed seems to be 7.5kts ish with no prevailing condition but a couple of our trips have been >70nm and we've had to time for tide so have had to push through the water at slightly more than the displacement sweet spot at times...if that makes sense?

The main concensus point of the trip between Ann and I is that we are absolutely going to buy a displacement or SD boat next time round; just had no idea how much we would enjoy the relaxed pace; you live and learn

And as for her anchoring technique! If I hadn't muted the sound on the video you would have heard what I thought of her method!!

 

[Newbroom]

Very often today's motors boater brought up on fast planing hulls have never experienced displacement or semi displacement cruising and comparing the two is a little unfair. It is totally different, many sailors giving up sailing for MBs look towards trawler yachts like the Trader because of the sea keeping.

Up until the mid 10s they were built to a price and sometimes the materials used where substandard but most of the time since then the stainless has been to a high quality.
Tony Chappels quality control was never great but certainly since it is a much better.

The worst sea keeping boat though badged Traders were in fact not Traders i.e. the 70ft was a Kai Shing unsold to another marque. the 65 ft ans 58 were Presidents re badged.

 

[MapisM]

Up until the mid 10s they were built to a price and sometimes the materials used where substandard but most of the time since then the stainless has been to a high quality.
Tony Chappels quality control was never great but certainly since it is a much better.

Sorry, can't understand what you mean by mid 10s?

@ Nigelpickin: understood re. "sweet spot".
Indeed, with my current full D boat (also a 53 footer), the engines seem to make almost no effort up to 7.5/8 knots, and while she can happily cruise forever at 9 knots, the fuel burn is definitely affected. At 10, most of the engines effort goes in digging a big hole in the water, but as I said her hull is strictly meant for displacement.
Just curious, re. steelwork quality: what vintage is Ocean Spirit?

@ Deleted User: do you remember when your friend's Trader was built, just for comparison with the one Nigelpicking mentioned?

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

The main concensus point of the trip between Ann and I is that we are absolutely going to buy a displacement or SD boat next time round; just had no idea how much we would enjoy the relaxed pace; you live and learn

Yup you don't find that out until you've made a few long trips!

 

[Nigelpickin]

I'll let the owner give you the down-low on the stainless and exact year, I know that his good lady was very busy with the polishing cloth after purchase. But the weight and feel looks good to me.

We are sailing from Zumaia to Leredo tomorrow morning, if we get the right conditions an 8kt passage rather than our usual 20kts will save us around £150 or in euros €150.01

Not sure what the extra hours will do to the value of the boat though so we are mindful of that. Still, we are very much enjoying steering with the trim tabs

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

@ Deleted User: do you remember when your friend's Trader was built, just for comparison with the one Nigelpicking mentioned?

M don't get too hung up on this. My friend's Trader was a late '90s model and the stainless steel problems were restricted to the supports for the hard top over the cockpit which corroded quite badly. I don't remember any issues with the s/s anywhere else. The main reason that I remember that issue was that Mr Chappell of Trader Yachts refused to help in any way

Just to go off piste a bit, if you're looking at Traders you might want to check out Horizon Elegances too which have a similar hull form and were/are also built in Taiwan. They sold well in certain parts of Europe mainly to Germans in the Balearics and Adriatic. I have looked at a few of them and I found the engineering quite impressive although the interiors can be a bit 'sudden' because owners were allowed a high degree of customisation. Some were certainly fitted with fin stabilisers

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Very often today's motors boater brought up on fast planing hulls have never experienced displacement or semi displacement cruising and comparing the two is a little unfair. It is totally different, many sailors giving up sailing for MBs look towards trawler yachts like the Trader because of the sea keeping.

Yup agree with that. P and SD boats like Traders are different animals and is unfair to compare both because each have their merits and demerits. Having said that there are SD hulls and SD hulls. Some are round bilged like Nelsons and Aquastars and others are hard chined. To my uninformed eye when I've looked at the underside of a Trader hull in the past, it has looked like a hard chined P hull but with a substantial keel added. We used to cruise regularly on our Princess 435 in company with my friend and his Trader 41+2 and to drive the 2 boats was chalk and cheese. The Princess like any good planing hull, steered precisely, was superb in a following sea and laterally stable in a beam sea but of course slammed a bit into a head sea. The Trader, on the other hand, steered slowly (autopilot was essential), wallowed a bit in a following sea, rolled quite a bit in a beam sea but ploughed through a head sea. It surprised me how 2 hulls which looked superficially quite similar, except for the keel, could drive so differently