Long keels handling and going astern: Need advice and encouragment.

[Robin]

One slight plea from one whose boats handled from usable to very well astern please!

It has been mentioned already here about going down a narrow lane and making sure that you are not too close to the boat in front which may just decide to 'back up'. We have been that boat in front several times and it is very frustrating to be too closely followed, tailgated even, by a boat has almost no hope of backing up if need be.

The last time this happened was in the visitor marina in Cherbourg and the wind was blowing strongly down the lane between the fingers. We motored slowly down looking for an empty spot, it was a Bank Holiday weekend, very full and it was dark and we had just arrived 'up' from Guernsey on the tide. We were followed down by a long keeler who, by the time we reached the point where we could go no farther without going on the rocks of the wall, was right on our transom despite our frantic waves for him to give us some space to turn or reverse out. He just yelled back that they could not go backwards. Whilst having every sympathy with their predicament it was largely of their own making in that they chose to go down a blind alley knowing full well that if there wasn't a space then they had a real problem. Well there wasn't a space and they added to their problem and then to ours too by tailgating us down.

With a very manoeuvrable fin keeler we often chose to reverse down really narrow blind alleys ( Concarneau comes to mind) in some wind conditions especially, that gave an 'easy abort' option to motor out forwards. Now if we took that precaution with a very manoeuverable fin keeler why oh why would a long keeler follow us in (forwards) very closely?

Anyway having made my plea, just a suggestion? Instead of allowing the inevitable cockpit gawpers their happy hour fun, ask the buggers to help, shame them into it if needs be! Having had a long time berth neighbour with a genuine old fashioned long keeler (not a long fin) we always volunteered if it looked like someone could do with some help.

 

[Ludd]

One slight plea from one whose boats handled from usable to very well astern please!

It has been mentioned already here about going down a narrow lane and making sure that you are not too close to the boat in front which may just decide to 'back up'. We have been that boat in front several times and it is very frustrating to be too closely followed, tailgated even, by a boat has almost no hope of backing up if need be.

The last time this happened was in the visitor marina in Cherbourg and the wind was blowing strongly down the lane between the fingers. We motored slowly down looking for an empty spot, it was a Bank Holiday weekend, very full and it was dark and we had just arrived 'up' from Guernsey on the tide. We were followed down by a long keeler who, by the time we reached the point where we could go no farther without going on the rocks of the wall, was right on our transom despite our frantic waves for him to give us some space to turn or reverse out. He just yelled back that they could not go backwards. Whilst having every sympathy with their predicament it was largely of their own making in that they chose to go down a blind alley knowing full well that if there wasn't a space then they had a real problem. Well there wasn't a space and they added to their problem and then to ours too by tailgating us down.

With a very manoeuvrable fin keeler we often chose to reverse down really narrow blind alleys ( Concarneau comes to mind) in some wind conditions especially, that gave an 'easy abort' option to motor out forwards. Now if we took that precaution with a very manoeuverable fin keeler why oh why would a long keeler follow us in (forwards) very closely?

Anyway having made my plea, just a suggestion? Instead of allowing the inevitable cockpit gawpers their happy hour fun, ask the buggers to help, shame them into it if needs be! Having had a long time berth neighbour with a genuine old fashioned long keeler (not a long fin) we always volunteered if it looked like someone could do with some help.

Point well made and noted ! BUT,believe it or not I have been overtaken in an "alley " by a local fin keeler,fully-crewed because he was worried I'd go into "his" berth. Since he then proceeded to cock up his own maoeuvre because he was going too fast,I had to drop my drudging chain and stop in the channel while he sorted himself out.Purely coincidentally,this then positioned me to go astern into an empty berth"So sometimes the God of longkeelers IS watching!

 

[Poignard]

The last time this happened was in the visitor marina in Cherbourg and the wind was blowing strongly down the lane between the fingers. We motored slowly down looking for an empty spot, it was a Bank Holiday weekend, very full and it was dark and we had just arrived 'up' from Guernsey on the tide. We were followed down by a long keeler who, by the time we reached the point where we could go no farther without going on the rocks of the wall, was right on our transom despite our frantic waves for him to give us some space to turn or reverse out. He just yelled back that they could not go backwards.

Well he was unwise for getting himself in that situation. He didn't need to go astern - with a strong following wind all he needed to do was to put his engine in slow astern and his boat would have stayed pretty much where she was whilst you manouvred past him. Anyway, where was he planning to berth if he couldn't get out?

 

[Goldie]

what technique do you use to spring the stern off when single handed? Seems to me you need to be in two places at once - in the cockpit to operate the engine and on the bow to release the spring. How do you manage it?

I sail almost exclusively double-handed, which doesn't answer your question I'm afraid. All I can think of is to rig the spring as a slip as normal, then back through a block forward and made fast in the cockpit - winch perhaps? Then you could slip it from the cockpit and reverse away. If both ends were made fast in the cockpit, you might even be able to jettison the whole lot if it snags. This brings us back to a lot of rope in the water though so perhaps it might be worthwhile keeping a long poly-prop rope for this - it floats! I haven't tried this by the way.......

 

[Robin]

Well he was unwise for getting himself in that situation. He didn't need to go astern - with a strong following wind all he needed to do was to put his engine in slow astern and his boat would have stayed pretty much where she was whilst you manouvred past him. Anyway, where was he planning to berth if he couldn't get out?

He got himself sideways across blocking the route out very effectively for us. We had nowhere to go but to back out (which we could do easily given no barricade) or be blown onto the dead end rock wall ourselves. We had gone all the way down there as it looked like there were spaces right in up by the ramp but when we got there they had small motor boats in them not visible until the last minute. I would guess that was why the other boat was following us too, but why he had to go so close up behind us is a different matter! He did manage to straighten up enough for us to reverse past and out but it was stressful for us to say the least and even more for him. He eventually did get far enough back from the dead end in a series of crescents and then turned and came out front first. Not what either of us would wish for after a windy upwind sail and arriving in the dark looking forward to a relaxing G & T!

 

[highandry]

I occasionally have to use a spring to get away from the pontoon with my long keel boat. I'm single handed and I've found the best way...for me...is to use a bight of rope as the spring. Led through a fairlead forward on her shoulder, one end made fast on a cleat on the cockpit coaming close to the wheel, the other end turned up on a sheet winch close by.

Once her stern is away from the pontoon, I let go the cleated end and haul away like a lunatic on the winch, usually with just the one turn on it. As long as she's moving astern I'm fairly confident of not fouling the prop with the slack coming aboard. So far so good...

 

[Poignard]

I occasionally have to use a spring to get away from the pontoon with my long keel boat. I'm single handed and I've found the best way...for me...is to use a bight of rope as the spring. Led through a fairlead forward on her shoulder, one end made fast on a cleat on the cockpit coaming close to the wheel, the other end turned up on a sheet winch close by.

Once her stern is away from the pontoon, I let go the cleated end and haul away like a lunatic on the winch, usually with just the one turn on it. As long as she's moving astern I'm fairly confident of not fouling the prop with the slack coming aboard. So far so good...

Hauling in lots of rope seems to be the drawback but, since my post above, I have found this description of something called a Tumble Hitch.

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/tumblehitch.html

This might be worth a try. If the standing part, which takes the load, is made fast to a cleat on the foredeck but the release end is left fairly slack (so it doesn't accidently trip the knot) and brought back to the cockpit you would only be hauling in around half the length compared with a normal slip. I must try it sometime (memo to self: buy some more fenders before trying this!).


Meanwhile, I'll continue with my favourite method - "Excuse me, can you spare a minute? Only I'm singlehanded and I need someone to let go a line for me."

 

[BruceDanforth]

Is it only me that gets into this pickle too with bilge keels?

 

[Ludd]

Is it only me that gets into this pickle too with bilge keels?

Don't know,but have you considered carrying a sweep? I'm seriously considering getting one and my boat is 35ft.
I used to manoeuvre 25ft heavy "FIFIES" round harbours with one(sculling) when I wa a lad.

 

[BruceDanforth]

How would that help then? Do you mean the shortish kind with a handle like a spade? Would it be useful single handed do you think? Do I need a wooden sculling thing on the toe rail to do it? I'll keep my eye open for one. The drudging idea certainly sounds good too.

 

[Ludd]

How would that help then? Do you mean the shortish kind with a handle like a spade? Would it be useful single handed do you think? Do I need a wooden sculling thing on the toe rail to do it? I'll keep my eye open for one. The drudging idea certainly sounds good too.

Basically an oar about 10ft long(for your boat,I would need 12to13 ft) .Establish a pivot point on toerail(maybe with a strop). You can then drive the boat sideways by sculling(figure of eight action,practice where no-one can see you!)

Try it with an inflatable at first with normal paddle,before spending any money!

 

[BruceDanforth]

Basically an oar about 10ft long(for your boat,I would need 12to13 ft) .Establish a pivot point on toerail(maybe with a strop). You can then drive the boat sideways by sculling(figure of eight action,practice where no-one can see you!)

Try it with an inflatable at first with normal paddle,before spending any money!

So I do it off the back? But I have to close the big lid over the outboard well to get there so slow myself getting to the engine? I'll have to learn to move faster.

 

[Ludd]

So I do it off the back? But I have to close the big lid over the outboard well to get there so slow myself getting to the engine? I'll have to learn to move faster.

NO! Set up as if for rowing on one side or the other--but scull instead! If she has a tendency to swing to port,backwater on the starboard side,and vice versa. If wind is blowing you offline, scull on the other side.

Or use two sweeps and sell your engine!

 

[BruceDanforth]

With the tiller, the boathook, the oar, a spare fender and seperate levers for throttle and gears and the hh vhf to get the bridge to open I'm only 1 arm short of needing to be an octopus now. Any way to use a short easily throwable paddle instead?

 

[highandry]

Hauling in lots of rope seems to be the drawback but, since my post above, I have found this description of something called a Tumble Hitch.

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/tumblehitch.html

This might be worth a try. If the standing part, which takes the load, is made fast to a cleat on the foredeck but the release end is left fairly slack (so it doesn't accidently trip the knot) and brought back to the cockpit you would only be hauling in around half the length compared with a normal slip. I must try it sometime (memo to self: buy some more fenders before trying this!).


Meanwhile, I'll continue with my favourite method - "Excuse me, can you spare a minute? Only I'm singlehanded and I need someone to let go a line for me."

Now that's a thought! I've actually used that hitch, not in a maritime context but to 'walk' s down steep a roof and being obliged to use the same rope for another slope, so I had to retrieve the rope. I know it as a "Highwayman's Hitch" and it held on that occasion so it should work on the pontoon. Needed a fair 'ol tug though to trip it, after my full weight had been on it. I'm in "excuse me, could you just..?" club too

 

[Poignard]

Mad idea?

I say you fellows, I've just had another spiffing wheeze.

Form an eye in the pontoon end of the forward spring. Keep the spring short so it cannot reach the prop.

Place the eye over one horn of the pontoon cleat, using the horn that is pointing aft.

To prevent it slipping off, fix it to the horn with a few turns of wool or a couple of those elastic bands the postmen throw on the pavement.

Put the engine into ahead so that the forward spring is kept under constant tension.

Remove all other lines except for a breast rope from cockpit to pontoon; rigged as a slip.

Take a deep breath, push the tiller away from the pontoon and slip the aft breast line. The stern will swing out from the pontoon.

When far enough off the pontoon, go astern. The wool or elastic band will break and the spring will drop off the horn into the water (no problem because it is too short to reach the prop)and can be recovered later.

Smile and wave.

 

[CAPTAIN FANTASTIC]

My previous yacht was a Bruce Roberts heavy long keeler; always predictable going astern in that it would never go where i wanted it to go. Therefore going astern was always a slow and careful operation and every time different because of the tide and wind; It was something that i had to accept, but never stopped me from going into marinas (Brightlingsea) but i could see some people looking very nervous when i was approaching the berths!!.

 

[pcatterall]

Like many others have reported my own long keeler would go astern in the way her mood took her. The wheel was very low geared with many spins 'lock to lock' I often got so I had no idea where the rudder was which didnt help.
I spent a few hours practicing in a quiet corner of the marina where I was near enough to the harbour wall and work jetties to understand what effect different techniques were having but not near where I could damage anything ( except my own boat).
I still had to conclude that critical manouvers astern were a no no but got much more confident in hard tight turning using the techniques outlined by others.
Good luck!

 

[highandry]

It's all good fun..love to watch 'em going palefaced and panic stricken when I leave the wheel and give a big shove on the pontoon with a long boathook...

 

[prv]

Now that's a thought! I've actually used that hitch, not in a maritime context but to 'walk' s down steep a roof and being obliged to use the same rope for another slope, so I had to retrieve the rope. I know it as a "Highwayman's Hitch"

That page on the Tumble Hitch explicitly points out that it is *not* a highwayman's hitch, though it is similar. A highwayman's hitch is made with the first loop in the loaded side, whereas the tumble hitch makes all loops in the pull-to-release side. Supposedly this makes it more secure and also less likely to jam.

I wouldn't advise using a highwayman's hitch in a safety line like you describe - pull hard enough and it will capsize and release. (Our "Akela" who taught it to me in Cubs said this was so the highwayman's horse could pull itself free to come when he whistled )

Pete