PhillM
Well-Known Member
Good point, said I was a novice
Long Keel, Marina, Reversing
- Thread starter TonyBuckley
- Start date
Good point, said I was a novice
TonyBuckley
Well-Known Member
I was thinking about that. On the fin keel I can spin on the spot and often give top power on full rudder to correct course. Does that work with long keel too?
Feels like I am starting yachty stuff all over again lol.
Tony
Lucky Duck
Well-Known Member
What type of boat is it?
sailorman
Well-Known Member
best keep the helm full lock to use the prop wash ( best way to suit prop rotation going ahead) short hard bust ahead then slower / longer astern dont use the helm.
i had a Co 32 they dont do backwards very well
i had a Co 32 they dont do backwards very well
PhillM
Well-Known Member
Yes, mine can spin on the spot, tiller hard over to starboard, quick burst fwd, then quick burst reverse and do on. Literally spin on the spot. But not with tiller to port. Might be to do with Lh prop and I'm waiting to see what difference a new engine with rh prop will do.
Blueboatman
Well-Known Member
What PVB says. 36 ft longish keel, fixed prop in aperture in the rudder.
NUTMEG
Well-Known Member
Having just changed from an impeccably mannered Westerly 21 to an unknown Mk1 Crabber 24 I have sympathy for the OP. Lady Jayne is currently berthed in the slipway, not in a finger berth and to get out involves a longish motor astern and avoiding the vintage gaffer moored on the hammerhead. So as I was pondering the tide race, wind and so on, trying to gather courage to attempt the manoeuvre, the son of the marina manager wanders up with the best advise I have had on the question of manoeuvring.
Don't!
He showed me how to turn the boat from the jetty using warps, tide and wind then jump aboard, engage forward and offski. As he said, many exciting manoeuvres can be avoided by handling from the jetty, using wind and/or tide to advantage. No shame in it.
Good luck.
Don't!
He showed me how to turn the boat from the jetty using warps, tide and wind then jump aboard, engage forward and offski. As he said, many exciting manoeuvres can be avoided by handling from the jetty, using wind and/or tide to advantage. No shame in it.
Good luck.
Rossynant
Well-Known Member
First thing - Grampian is a finkeeler. Rudder separate, on skeg. If I recall same boat, long ago.
So there should be not much problem.
Prop walk you can imagine for yourself : think of prop as a wheel rolling on bottom, will take boat stern with it to the side (untill she actually moves back). To this side where top of prop goes.
Problem with longkeeler is, oversimplifying, that prop is right behind the keel, so sends water on the back face of keel - and it cannot flow forward but spreads sideways any old how.
When propeller is at some distance from keel this won't happen, water flows freely forward doing what it should.
With propeller close to rudder you will see that rudder acts in flow of water 'sucked' by prop even when boat is standing still, so you may use this to move the stern where you want.
Yes, seems this is finkeel and prop in free space: http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=1660 ; http://photos.mostsailboats.org/1973-Grampian-34-centre-cockpit-ketch_15760_11.jpg
So there should be not much problem.
Prop walk you can imagine for yourself : think of prop as a wheel rolling on bottom, will take boat stern with it to the side (untill she actually moves back). To this side where top of prop goes.
Problem with longkeeler is, oversimplifying, that prop is right behind the keel, so sends water on the back face of keel - and it cannot flow forward but spreads sideways any old how.
When propeller is at some distance from keel this won't happen, water flows freely forward doing what it should.
With propeller close to rudder you will see that rudder acts in flow of water 'sucked' by prop even when boat is standing still, so you may use this to move the stern where you want.
Yes, seems this is finkeel and prop in free space: http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=1660 ; http://photos.mostsailboats.org/1973-Grampian-34-centre-cockpit-ketch_15760_11.jpg
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LittleSister
Well-Known Member
A Grampian 34 is not a long-keeler - it has a fin keel (not even a particularly long one) and a separate rudder. A fin keel 5ft long is just a fin. It should handle easily.
It is definitely not what is usually known as a long-keel - i.e. where the keel runs almost all the way to the stern and has the rudder hung directly on the back of it. (I suspect that much of the challenging behaviour of long-keelers is down to the rudder arrangement (including the prop/rudder relationship), rather than the length of the keel itself.)
It is definitely not what is usually known as a long-keel - i.e. where the keel runs almost all the way to the stern and has the rudder hung directly on the back of it. (I suspect that much of the challenging behaviour of long-keelers is down to the rudder arrangement (including the prop/rudder relationship), rather than the length of the keel itself.)
Wandering Star
Well-Known Member
What a comforting thread, I thought it was only me! My Vancouver 27 seems to have a mind of her own and after 6 years of ownership I still haven't learned how to reliably know where the hell she'll end up in the marina once I drop her lines and go astern! But of course once moving forward in clear water, that vice if not forgotten, is forgiven.
Cheers, Brian.
Cheers, Brian.
ianj99
Well-Known Member
Mine suffers from pronounced prop walk, and as you can see, has neither a blunt ended keel nor the prop close to the rudder. The prop walk is worse since a Kiwi prop was fitted but this is due to the greater pitch in reverse. Using minimal revs or short bursts are the way. Doing a crash stop and the prop walk is dramatic though at least she does now slow down since the Kiwi was fitted!
Rivers & creeks
Well-Known Member
Suffers? It's one of the few methods I have for manoeuvring! The bowthruster helps a bit but alternating forward and reverse using the prop walk is surprisingly effective.
Pye_End
Well-Known Member
Use quick burst of power in ahead to alter her heading (when moving astern), and then put her back in astern to keep her way up.
Some say than when moving astern, put her in neutral and you will gain some steerage, although this has never worked for me.
Some say than when moving astern, put her in neutral and you will gain some steerage, although this has never worked for me.
LittleSister
Well-Known Member
I hesitate to offer suggestions on long-keel manouevring as it seems like tempting fate, and our departures certainly aren't always a model of calm and elegance!
However, I think that it's important to get out of the way of thinking 'how do I steer it over there?' and more towards 'where is the boat most likely to be wanting to go (wind/tide/prop-walk/rudder bias, etc.) and how much can I influence that to get where I want it to end up?'
We come out of our berth in different directions, depending on wind direction, and its not unusual to change plans part way through as the balance of forces turns out diufferent to what is expected - going with the flow as far as possible.
I find the prop walk a very useful part of the armoury, both taking off and coming to a halt.
As I've gained confidence I have found getting some speed on (it's probably only a knot or so) in reverse, then putting it in neutral, gives me a degree of steering control with the rudder, but not enough to pull the boat round the opposite way to what the wind wants unless I gun it and that would involve getting a good few knots on.
A typical departure would find the wind on our port bow, us attached to a finger pontoon to port, with a further six or eight boats beyond it to port, and another pontoon astern. Prop pulls to port in astern. We'd move the boat slighty out from the (windward) finger pontoon (using the wind & mooring lines, or pushing the boat), letting the wind and prop walk push the bow round as the boat moves backwards using just enough astern drive to get the boat out of the berth before the bow can swing into the neighbouring boat, then once clear of the berth giving a plenty of revs to build up enough speed to drop it into neutral and steer against the wind preventing the boat just continuing round in an arc into the line of boats parked to port of our berth. If the wind is light enough we can steer her properly to port against the wind enough to get her out past the ends of the pontoons facing the right way to leave the marina. If the wind seems too strong for that we just go with the flow more, come out facing the back end of the marina, and once we're clear of the pontoons we can put it into forward where we've got more control and get enough speed to do a 180 degree turn taking the bow through the wind.
If all else fails, just let the bow go where the wind wants to take it, and use astern to keep the boat stationary and away from anything downwind. You can often just hang there like that while you collect your thoughts and ponder how you're gonna extricate yourself from there!
However, I think that it's important to get out of the way of thinking 'how do I steer it over there?' and more towards 'where is the boat most likely to be wanting to go (wind/tide/prop-walk/rudder bias, etc.) and how much can I influence that to get where I want it to end up?'
We come out of our berth in different directions, depending on wind direction, and its not unusual to change plans part way through as the balance of forces turns out diufferent to what is expected - going with the flow as far as possible.
I find the prop walk a very useful part of the armoury, both taking off and coming to a halt.
As I've gained confidence I have found getting some speed on (it's probably only a knot or so) in reverse, then putting it in neutral, gives me a degree of steering control with the rudder, but not enough to pull the boat round the opposite way to what the wind wants unless I gun it and that would involve getting a good few knots on.
A typical departure would find the wind on our port bow, us attached to a finger pontoon to port, with a further six or eight boats beyond it to port, and another pontoon astern. Prop pulls to port in astern. We'd move the boat slighty out from the (windward) finger pontoon (using the wind & mooring lines, or pushing the boat), letting the wind and prop walk push the bow round as the boat moves backwards using just enough astern drive to get the boat out of the berth before the bow can swing into the neighbouring boat, then once clear of the berth giving a plenty of revs to build up enough speed to drop it into neutral and steer against the wind preventing the boat just continuing round in an arc into the line of boats parked to port of our berth. If the wind is light enough we can steer her properly to port against the wind enough to get her out past the ends of the pontoons facing the right way to leave the marina. If the wind seems too strong for that we just go with the flow more, come out facing the back end of the marina, and once we're clear of the pontoons we can put it into forward where we've got more control and get enough speed to do a 180 degree turn taking the bow through the wind.
If all else fails, just let the bow go where the wind wants to take it, and use astern to keep the boat stationary and away from anything downwind. You can often just hang there like that while you collect your thoughts and ponder how you're gonna extricate yourself from there!
nathanlee
Well-Known Member
My boat also has a proper long keel, and I have no idea how to steer it in reverse. Basically, gun it astern to get clear of the pontoon, then sort out whatever mess you've gotten in to ahead once you have a bit of room. Would hate to get it in to a tight space. I need much more practice, and better insurance.
Davegriff
Well-Known Member
Is this the boat you're looking at (with pics):
http://www.whyboats.com/brokerage-boats/boat-details.php?BoatID=3879774
Fin keel 5 foot draft
http://www.whyboats.com/brokerage-boats/boat-details.php?BoatID=3879774
Fin keel 5 foot draft
Amulet
Well-Known Member
Amulet is also like a supermarket trolley with a wonky wheel in astern. If someone sits in the pulpit with a oar they can paddle the bow sideways like a human bow-thruster. She is a small boat though.
PhillM
Well-Known Member
It is worth say that in a lot of circumstances you can avoid going astern.
Paean lives on an inner berth. Think of a cul-de-sac with the main pontoon, then fingers offit at right angles (as per most marinas) – difference is our fingers were built for big boats so smaller ones like us get put inside of medium sized ones. So, to get in, we have to thread her between a Bav and a large mobo and then stop before hitting the main pontoon and get across to our place on the finger. The space is the boat length plus .1/2m so the only way you could motor in would be to have bow and stern thrusters and literally go sideward’s.
We tend to have more time, patience and be more “in-tune / thinking boat” at the end of journeys so we come past the two outer boats and depending on wind / tide either lay alongside the other inner boat or go 90 degrees to lay to the main pontoon. We then warp her round so that we are facing out – ready for our next trip.
It does take two for this manoeuvre, so if I am S/H I call in to the marina for help. Since I discovered the “joy” of astern was by design not my incompetence, I am much happier about asking for help.
Paean lives on an inner berth. Think of a cul-de-sac with the main pontoon, then fingers offit at right angles (as per most marinas) – difference is our fingers were built for big boats so smaller ones like us get put inside of medium sized ones. So, to get in, we have to thread her between a Bav and a large mobo and then stop before hitting the main pontoon and get across to our place on the finger. The space is the boat length plus .1/2m so the only way you could motor in would be to have bow and stern thrusters and literally go sideward’s.
We tend to have more time, patience and be more “in-tune / thinking boat” at the end of journeys so we come past the two outer boats and depending on wind / tide either lay alongside the other inner boat or go 90 degrees to lay to the main pontoon. We then warp her round so that we are facing out – ready for our next trip.
It does take two for this manoeuvre, so if I am S/H I call in to the marina for help. Since I discovered the “joy” of astern was by design not my incompetence, I am much happier about asking for help.
onesea
Well-Known Member
I met a couple last year who had a Trade Wind which has similar issues going astern... They had returned from a serious blue water trip and commented that some one pointed out to them this point.
They say it changed there sailing, they just not longer considered maneuvering astern as an option. If they think they are going to have to maneuver astern they just did not do it... As they said they now have wrong boat for the Solent...
There are a few tricks you can use and most boats have some predictability astern, once you learn what they are going to do. This can only come from experience play with the boat in open water try backing up to a buoy. Try it with the wind on the bow wind on the stern on the beam different amounts of throttle boat speeds etc etc...
Learn the limitations of you and your boat...
The scary thing as you say is the first time out how is she going to handle? Lots of fenders reasonable precautions hope for helpful winds and current..
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TonyBuckley
Well-Known Member
Oh my gosh! The brokers spec says long keel but people are correct that other online data sheets say fin. Its a more shallow fin than my 26 footer.
I'm feeling foolish now not knowing the definition of a long keel and just taking the brokers spec sheet as gospel.
So may be she will be fine with my experience - we will see.
Thanks for all the replies - interesting to learn as always.
Tony
I'm feeling foolish now not knowing the definition of a long keel and just taking the brokers spec sheet as gospel.
So may be she will be fine with my experience - we will see.
Thanks for all the replies - interesting to learn as always.
Tony