Davegriff
Well-Known Member
Why foolish? Its aspect ratio is sort of long in the horizontal. (is that English?)
Long Keel, Marina, Reversing
- Thread starter TonyBuckley
- Start date
Why foolish? Its aspect ratio is sort of long in the horizontal. (is that English?)
TimBennet
Well-Known Member
That's correct - your boat has a long keel as the aspect ratio is 'long' - ie it wider than it is deep. The description 'long' is used to distinguish them from more 'racy', or high aspect, fin keels.
What your prospective boat doesn't have however is a full keel.
Although there's no absolute definitions of these, especially as colloquial use is often very confused with 'fin' being used to describe any keel separate from the rudder, and 'long' being used interchangeably with 'full'.
But conventionally, a full keel has the rudder attached, a long keel has the rudder separate but an aspect ratio less than 1:1, and a fin keel has an aspect higher than that.
However a 'short keel' isn't a shorter version of a long keel, but was the ultimate development of a full keel, where the efforts to save wetted surface area were taken to an extreme and the boat was uncontrollable.
Zagato
Well-Known Member
Two solutions I have seen used very effectively for single handers in Chichester Marina.
1. Use a spring on the end of the pontoon to act as a pivot to motor against!
2. Attach a kids sandbag to your line and throw it onto the pontoon behind you, walk around to the pontoon, loop it around the pontoon cleat and throw it back into your cockpit. You can then pull your boat backwards against the wind etc then move forward under engine when you have enough room. Don't forget to detach the sandbag otherwise it will get trapped under the cleat when pulling it in or undo the other end from your boat cleat. Helps if someone is around to catch and throw back your line but not necessary.
1. Use a spring on the end of the pontoon to act as a pivot to motor against!
2. Attach a kids sandbag to your line and throw it onto the pontoon behind you, walk around to the pontoon, loop it around the pontoon cleat and throw it back into your cockpit. You can then pull your boat backwards against the wind etc then move forward under engine when you have enough room. Don't forget to detach the sandbag otherwise it will get trapped under the cleat when pulling it in or undo the other end from your boat cleat. Helps if someone is around to catch and throw back your line but not necessary.
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fisherman
Well-Known Member
Is it so desperate an issue? Buy the boat you want for what it does at sea, I'm sure you'll find a way to get it in and out, as the actress said ....oh, p'raps not
PhillM
Well-Known Member
Problem is for novices (like me) is you start to wonder why everyone else seems able to make their boat go where they want, but you don't have the talent. Only when you realise that their boats have different attributes and it takes a different level of skills to handle boats that were designed before marinas - in a marina - do you feel better. Otherwise it is a source of stress everytime you go sailing, which kind of defeats the point of a hobby.
pvb
Well-Known Member
Lots of marina-based sailing schools offer specific boat handling courses. A day spent going in and out of marina berths, with an instructor telling you the tips and tricks, can be well worthwhile.
PhillM
Well-Known Member
Agreed, it was time spent with an instructor, who after hours still could not predict the way the boat would handle, it became clear that its the boat not me- so that took all the stress out of it
Now I enjoy the challenge.
ghostlymoron
Well-Known Member
Long keelers were designed in the days before marinas existed and tight manoeuvring astern was not required. These days sailors expect parking a boat to be as easy as parking at Sainsburys. My advice is to practice where you have some space as each boat has it's own peculiarities and also make use of 'traditional' techniques such as warping, drudging and kedging.
Poignard
Well-Known Member
Agreed, it was time spent with an instructor, who after hours still could not predict the way the boat would handle, it became clear that its the boat not me- so that took all the stress out of it
Years ago, when I first bought our Twister, my inability to steer her astern really worried me. The situation was not helped by a very experienced know-all in my club who assured me that "Any boat can be steered astern".
Eventually I paid an experienced yachtmaster instructor to come out with me for the day and show me how it should be done. We had a very pleasant day out and I learned a lot but in the end he admitted defeat.
Even the great Tom Cunliffe (whom God preserve) cannot steer a Twister astern.
Now I know from experts that it can't be done I don't worry about it any more (well, not much
)TWINSCREW
Well-Known Member
I used to middle the rudder, give a good astern thrust for about 4-5 seconds and when the finger end was midships throw the rudder over smartly, she will answer ok , if she slows down just tickle the throttle to keep steerage way. always worked for me. gently always works with either the fair sex or boats.
Zagato
Well-Known Member
Canal boats are easier than long keels yachts! I found it tricky enough with a 22' Drascombe last year in Chi marina - gave myself a hernia doing it 
I am glad to be on a mooring this year with the Crabber - much easier but I have written down all the tricks researched for manoeuvring in tight quarters, not just reversing but leaving berths with a long keel i.e. reversing against an aft spring to bring the bow out - whatever happens if the wind is too strong though I don't know, will have to face that when I come to it.
I'm going to spend time in a quiet harbour just motoring about to see what direction my prop walk is and how she handles generally in turns and forward, reverse speeds. You need to know when to gun it to give you steerage and when to reduce speed for more control in a drift!
I am glad to be on a mooring this year with the Crabber - much easier but I have written down all the tricks researched for manoeuvring in tight quarters, not just reversing but leaving berths with a long keel i.e. reversing against an aft spring to bring the bow out - whatever happens if the wind is too strong though I don't know, will have to face that when I come to it.
I'm going to spend time in a quiet harbour just motoring about to see what direction my prop walk is and how she handles generally in turns and forward, reverse speeds. You need to know when to gun it to give you steerage and when to reduce speed for more control in a drift!
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Davegriff
Well-Known Member
Well, we all start as novices. Some, like me, even preserve that impression to others.
westernman
Well-Known Member
The trick is to get to know where your boat is going to want to go, and then plan your approach so that where you would like the boat to go coincides with where you know it is going to go.
Rivers & creeks
Well-Known Member
I like the advice - don't motor astern. We've followed that mantra and works for us. Astern is for stopping and a bit of reverse prop walk. Every real reverse is done by warping.
rob2
Well-Known Member
Nearly been killed so many times at Sainsburys, I suspect there's not a lot in it!
The fin and skeg design of the Grampian will turn slower than a quarter-tonner, but she should respond OK. The slower response will mean that you have to consider the effects of wind and tide more as they have longer to act upon the boat. Good choice to take an instructor with you, it takes a lot of the pressure off so you can enjoy the experience and assess the boat as though you already have the experience it will give you.
Rob.
Rossynant
Well-Known Member
I would also say with Grampian there should be no problems, just practice to know the boat. After I almost smashed two expensive mobos taking unknown boat out first time (boat 15 metre, 15 tons ) quickly learned how to turn huge beast around in her lenght. Possible, needs trying and dedication...
Many "longkeeled" boats of today are difficult because this is no longer real "long keel" but cut under bows (so they blow off) or with rudder moved forward so not efficient. Some reactions still can be anticipated, by experienced owner. Not that can be prevented - with sail on roller and mast forward how could we prevent the boat blowing bows down? No idea, but I got ketch.
On traditional boat though it's still easier to sail backwards then to motor...
) quickly learned how to turn huge beast around in her lenght. Possible, needs trying and dedication...They were designed when people knew what to do, and they were meant to maneuver under sail. Real antiques are in fact easier to controll.
Many "longkeeled" boats of today are difficult because this is no longer real "long keel" but cut under bows (so they blow off) or with rudder moved forward so not efficient. Some reactions still can be anticipated, by experienced owner. Not that can be prevented - with sail on roller and mast forward how could we prevent the boat blowing bows down? No idea, but I got ketch.
On traditional boat though it's still easier to sail backwards then to motor...
fisherman
Well-Known Member
Found a narrowboat a bit strange: the rudder seemed not to be over balanced, but let go the helm and straight up the bank, and nothing short of hard over to correct. My boat is 32ft and 12 tons, 4ft6in deep all through: if I leave it to its own devices the helm centres itself.
charles_reed
Well-Known Member
Leaving aside the havering of the long-keel brigade, having had a look at the Grampian 34 underwater lines she cannot, by any imaginative stretch be called a long-keeler. Skeg hung rudder and a medium-length keel, common to many excellent seaboats.
She won't be as easy to throw around a marina as a Bav 34 in a calm, but she'll be considerably easier when there's a bit of wind about.
She won't be as easy to throw around a marina as a Bav 34 in a calm, but she'll be considerably easier when there's a bit of wind about.
maxcampbell
Well-Known Member
I, too, am finding a lot of comfort in this thread, as I have so far found it almost impossible to execute a planned manoeuvre going backwards. She's a very light boat (650Kg), so easy to stop by hand, but we use her as if we don't have reverse - even using it as a brake is uncomfortable as the outboard knocks the back of the well.
As has been said, slowness is critical, and then that long keel is an advantage - she doesn't get blown off when she's doing half a knot.
We always carry very long lines, too, and usually warp her round, somehow - if we can't, then I can twiddle the outboard and steer, but even then I can't predict whether I'll get the bows to start swinging in time.
As has been said, slowness is critical, and then that long keel is an advantage - she doesn't get blown off when she's doing half a knot.
We always carry very long lines, too, and usually warp her round, somehow - if we can't, then I can twiddle the outboard and steer, but even then I can't predict whether I'll get the bows to start swinging in time.
Poignard
Well-Known Member
Drop a weight on a line from the bow as a temporary anchor or run a sail up the backstay.
I know the weight method works because I often use it myself, but I have never tried the sail up the backstay technique. However, John Goode recommends it and he seems to know what he's talking about. There's a few photos of it being done in one of his books on boat handling.