Lofrans Tigress Windlass gypsy - how to check size and condition

[Anonymous]

I want to check the size and condition of my 10mm Lofrans Tigress windlass gypsy. There is nothing on the outside edge of the gypsy - no markings at all. How can one measure a gypsy to distinguish between the various nominal 10mm sizes? Also, having never compared new and old gypsies, I don't know how to distinguish between them since even new ones are curvy, not sharp-edged. Can anyone help, please? Many thanks.

 

[chasroberts]

I presume you've got the gypsy off the windlass. If so take it round to the chandlers by the hard standing and talk to the guys in there. (I have the same windlass but with an 8mm gypsy). A length of 10mm calibrated chain, which from memory they have, should snug nicely into the slots but other than that I don't know of any other test. According to the manufacturers you should only use calibrated 10mm chain on a 10mm gypsy and the gypsy is set up for that. I'm sure that someone will be of the opinion that nominal 10mm chain can be used with varying degrees of success. I suppose in the end it's what you consider acceptable.

 

[steve_cronin]

The proof of the pudding.....

..is in the eating.

(Mine was delivered with a 3/8ths gipsy and we changed it for a 10mm at the agents.)

Surely so long as the chain isn't jumping out then the gipsy is serviceable?

On your Nauticat, I assume that the windlass is deck mounted with the stem roller below the top of the gipsy and therefore the chain is in contact with the gipsy for very nearly 3/4 of it's circumference at least. In our case, with it being mounted in Bavaria's below deck anchor locker and serving to a bow roller above itself, the chain only makes contact with only two or three teeth at a time so jumping out is far more common especially if there is wear. After 5 years of use in Med. style mooring we have recently changed the gipsy due to wear but if I had your arrangement, I would expect it to last many times longer before it started shedding it's chain.

Steve Cronin

 

[Anonymous]

Re: The proof of the pudding.....

Steve and Chas...thanks. The problem is that there are two principal types of calibrated 10mm chain; DIN 766 and ISO. Without doubt, my chain is ISO. Mostly I have no problems but under very heavy loads it can jump, which bothers me greatly. While I never lie to anchor on the windlass, but use an appropriate snubber or warp, let me explain my problem in case someone can make some suggestions aside from the chain/gypsy match. This is an example...

I am lying to anchor, 40m chain out in around 8m and the wind is getting up. I want to leave and put out to sea to find a harbour. Getting the chain in is a bit of a struggle, keeping the chain lined up with the roller, waiting for the horsing to slow and for the tension to be acceptable for winching in (my wife is on the throttle during this). As the chain comes in, the shorter rode causes more snatching; the anchor is still firmly in, but the catenary is disappearing each time the bow horses or meets a larger oncoming wave. At these times, the forces are quite large - much more than I would like to subject the windlass to, but what is the alternative? It is at times such as this that the chain can jump out of the gypsy, sometimes several links, making a lot of noise. It is quite alarming, actually, to see one's chain going out while one is trying to get it in! The conditions I am talking about are around F5/6 with a swell, so I wonder what will happen with more sea. Until I get this sorted, I would probably buoy the chain and let the anchor go, and retrieve it later. I've had to do that and it is a heck of a pain as well as being a bit risky, being anchor-less (aside from a kedge).

So, first of all I want to establish without doubt that I have the right gypsy for the chain which means I need to be able to measure it. Offering it up isn't really the answer as it already passes that test on my present chain.

I am looking at having some stainless bits made up to prevent the chain from jumping off the bow roller - a big issue with this design - but it will nor stop the chain jumping off the gypsy.

Thanks for your input, chaps, much appreciated /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[DaveNTL]

Re: The proof of the pudding.....

I remember we discussed this some while back as I was having the same problem as you - also a Nauticat with a Lofrans Tigres.

I spoke to Lofrans (in the States) and they said that I really should bring it in or send it to them to know exactly even though I had the chain details from it's marks. So when I was near to one of their offices I did just that.

It now works fine and until you get it sorted you will not believe the difference. I'm amazed that the previous owner didn't think there was a problem.... well... I'm not, I now think he never anchored! Mine works so well now I can pull up other peoples anchors as well as my own! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Here's a pic of the new gypsy. Hope it helps.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: The proof of the pudding.....

Many thanks, I guess I'll have to do that. Meanwhile, the local stainless fabricator is suggesting that I have 'ears' welded by the bow roller to help keep the chain on the roller. What do you think?

 

[DaveNTL]

Re: The proof of the pudding.....

I would really try the right new gypsy option first and see.

As far as fabrication and ears is concerned, I think your situation is better than mine was, yours being a pilothouse and mine a motor sailer as my bow roller is further from the gypsy than yours is, so I wouldn't go down that route yet.

Forgot to say - firstly I cut off a piece of chain and sent it off by courier to Lofrans agent / supplier - the gypsy they sent me still wasn't right!

That's why I ended up going myself. They took me into their stores and pulled out all the boxes and tried them until they said 'it's this one'.

I've been in exactly the same position as you and know how scary it is when it either jumps or starts running off when you're trying to haul anchor while the Mrs is motoring up. I can now steer and motor up myself and haul it from the cockpit controls. Would never have thought I could do that before.

Best of luck and fair winds!

 

[Anonymous]

Re: The proof of the pudding.....

The local chandler, who sounds pretty credible on the subject of calibrated chain, says that with 10mm chain if the chain feels OK on the gypsy then it is fine. My chain certainly measures up as ISO and there is quite a difference in measurements between that and DIN so I would have thought that ISO chain over a DIN gypsy would be immediately obvious. Yet your experience contradicts this. How many different 10mm gypsies have they made? According to the exploded diagram in the manual, and the parts list, they make three different types of 3/8 gypsies and only one 10mm. Yours looks like 10mm chain.

I'm puzzled /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[Anonymous]

Re: The proof of the pudding.....

I have finally got the bottom of it and you were right. For the benefit of anyone following the thread or those searching in the future,......

I have an ISO chain and a DIN gypsy, the chain has a pitch of 28mm and the gypsy, 30mm. I have spoken to a Lofrans dealer who told me that until recently Lofrans marked both the DIN and ISO gypsies as 10. My chandler told me that there is no way you could confuse the two and that a mismatch would not work at all - which is not yours or my experience. However, I have not had the luxury of trying different gypsies but I found that by holding the chain gently over the gypsy and jiggling it, I could clearly see that the chain was several mm longer than the scallops on the gypsy so it was clear the gypsy must be 28mm pitch, not 30.

It was going to cost me €88 for a new gypsy and €8.5 per metre for new chain and since my chain probably has another few years if I turn it end to end, I have ordered the new gypsy. I am also fitting ears to the roller as there has already been damage done due to the chain falling off the bow roller (not related to the gypsy). I am also fitting a radio remote controller with up and down control so that I can handle the anchor from the wheel. Fingers crossed!

Thanks for your help...it was your email that put me on the right track. From my investigations it seems that lots of people get caught in this trap.

 

[DaveNTL]

Re: The proof of the pudding.....

Thats great! Glad you got it sorted.

Makes two of us then who's chandler knew all about these things only to find out that he didn't. Still, we all live and learn.

I would never have thought my orignal gypsy was wrong - or, I suppose it was the chain the original owner bought that was wrong - it looked right, and I was blaming Nauticats design of the bow roller for a while. Shame on me!

Anyway, well done - happy anchoring! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[GMac]

Re: The proof of the pudding.....

The 2 sorts of chain are actually DIN766 Standard (28mm Pitch) and EN818-3 Standard (30mm pitch). ISO is short for International Standards Organisation, the crowd that oversees all the differing standards, these 2 standards being only a fraction of them all. The US has differing standards again.

Both chains are calibrated, assuming not of asian manufacture, the DIN a lot more than the EN. The EN is a bit stronger not that it makes a big differance in actual use. Using un-calibrated chain voids most warrantees and is dangerous to the winch, has split gypsies, bent main shafts and bu**erd the gearboxes.

No winch manufacturere makes a singular gypsy that takes both chains. A couple come close but suffer excess gypsy and chain wear.

Getting the right gypsy is important. Most are marked up well or becoming so at least.

Chains should not jump on gypsies. There will be the odd occasion like mentioned above when the boat is going mad may cause the odd jump. A lot more common on Horizontal winches than Vertical.

It can be tricky at times as the US market is the main target for most manufacturers, being a biggest, so they tend to look there first and then make the bits for the rest of us. Maxwell for example still mark and call thier gear in Imperial for the US market i.e. Freedom 800 has a 800lb max pull. NZ has been metric for 20 plus years now.

Hopefully this is understandable. To check the fit of a chain in a gypsy get a bit of the chain and wrap it right around the gypsy and pull it tight as you can so the chain is meeting itself after the full wrap. In this state 1/2 the links should be sitting nicely into the chain pocket. They should not look like they are riding up at one end or the other of the pocket. The other 1/2 of the links should be able to be wiggled just a little, not a lot or be tight. If all looks fine so far, fix an end of the chain and pretend to use the gypsy as it would be on the winch. Holding the chain as tight as you can and with a full wrap (as it would be on the boat) roll the gypsy along the chain to see if there is any link sticking (or catching a bit) as it peels off (again as it would on the boat). There should be no sticking at all, even a little bit may indicate it is not the right gypsy. It the chain works after doing these 2 things you most probably have the right one. If it is not quite right anywhere in this it may pay to check a bit further. Obviously if it fails big time you have the wrong gypsy.

Having a chain just 'only a little' out will cause excessive wear to winch and chain. It is also increasing the chances of a jamb up. As Murphys Law dictates this will happen at 3am while your trying to do a runner from a raft of dragging boats coming down on you in crap weather. Not nice and not necessary.

8.50 mt...... Ouch. That's up there. Here Italian made 10mm retails around 4.50 mt in the funny English money /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Anonymous]

Re: The proof of the pudding.....

Thanks for all that. Yes, I found that by holding a few links over the scallops that the chain was a little bit too long - by a few mm which is the difference between a 30mm ISO and a 28mm DIN. Having done it, I could do it again with no trouble at all. It is very obvious when you know what to look for - like most things in life? /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
[ QUOTE ]
8.50 mt...... Ouch. That's up there. Here Italian made 10mm retails around 4.50 mt in the funny English money /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]Well, they offer a 20% discount for buying a round quantity in steps of 10m so the price, delivered to the boat, IVA paid for 10mm ISO or DIN (same price) is €6.80 per metre which is about 4.70 in Blairgeld.