Lofrans Tigres fail

R

roaringgirl

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The windlass has been on the boat since before we bought her, and probably a lot longer than that. It has never let us down in 8 years. However, after some recent deep-water anchoring, it has started making some "I'm eating my bearings" noises. I ordered some new bearings and seals and started disassembling to discover that the outer clutch cone has a key-shaped gouge out of it, the key is bent and the keyway on the shaft is warped enough that the inner cone (also gouged) won't slide off over it.

The Tigres has the option to let the chain free-flow by loosening the gypsy clutch. I can only assume that this damage occurred when the clutch was subsequently closed again while the weight of 30m of chain was pulling on the gypsy. I can't see how else the free-drop function can be used as the clutch is pretty binary at high speed. Does anyone have any ideas (apart from re-engineering to use a spline instead of a keyway!) or should I stick to motor-driven dropping in anything over (say) 10m?
 
30m of chain, no matter the size of the chain, should not be enough to cause any damage to a windlass. I know 30m x 12/13mm is heavy (If that is what you use) but the windlass should be constructed to take that weight. An 'accidental' snatch load would possibly be a more likely culprit and this could occur if you were retrieving the rode and you were hit by a bullet of wind or a big MoBo created a monster bow wave. In such situation you simply do not have time to take a potential snatch load off the windlass (by using a short strop) and the snatch might be severe enough to cause damage. If you have one of those lever type chain locks in line with your windlass - it would take the snatch - and my suggestion is a non starter.

The other alternative would be no use of a snubber at all and then a snatch load - but that seems unlikely as you will know what you are doing (as you read this forum :) ).

Our current Maxwell and the previous Muir both allowed free fall - by loosening the clutch. I'm not aware of any other mechanism. There is nothing wrong with motor driven dropping (I've never seen any warnings on any windlass). Motor driven dropping is slower, so if you are aiming for a bit of sand and drifting as you deploy you might miss the chosen patch. It also uses a some hard earned amps - but this should not be a worry (as you probably have the engine idle as you anchor).

Sorry - but I'm unable to answer your query :(

Jonathan
 
rebuilt my Tigres 10yrs ago. Over the last 7yrs I'm regularly using it with 10mm chain dropping and retrieving 50-60m with no issues.
always using power to lower and lift the chain though.
wondering when Lofrans started building them, wouldn't be impressed if it's from the 70s and original equipment on my mobo

key was a bit of a pain to remove, not sure I replaced it tbh, I think I just filed it down flat
 
I think it was braking when free-dropping 80m of chain in 30m of water while it was gusting up to 35kts that shock-loaded the key. I cannot see anything except a shock load causing the damage I can see. The anchor has been pretty well-set in some places so perhaps it was my retrieval technique that caused it - I would pull the chain tight and let the swell do the work of pulling the anchor free, on reflection that would load the windlass key, I should use the chain hook to snub it for this operation (and will do in future).
 
braking as in free dropping and then tightening the fancy key with the supplied 1/2in .5m tube you mean? v.much doubt it tbh. It would slowly brake anyway, no way it would shock load the system.
 
roaringgirl said:
I think it was braking when free-dropping 80m of chain in 30m of water while it was gusting up to 35kts that shock-loaded the key. I cannot see anything except a shock load causing the damage I can see. The anchor has been pretty well-set in some places so perhaps it was my retrieval technique that caused it - I would pull the chain tight and let the swell do the work of pulling the anchor free, on reflection that would load the windlass key, I should use the chain hook to snub it for this operation (and will do in future).
Click to expand...


If you drop 80m of chain into 30m of water then the shock load is only the 30m of chain - and the windlass. should be designed for that. Retreiving using the swell to tension the rode is 'normal' - yes you should use a chain lock, or a hook on a short strop attached to a strong point - but I bet most don't and the windlass should be designed for some misuse. Its not often people blame an effective anchor as a cause of a problem :)

The only times I have wondered, unnecessarily, about integrity is when retrieving in severe chop or when a MoBo created a severe wave during our retrieval - and then you can get a b ig snatch load. I ran some tests on rode loading and the maximum that developed was 650kg (no damage to anything - but very scary - I discontinued my testing). it was like driving into a brick wall.

We have a chain hook on a dyneema strop attached to a strong point.

Jonathan
 
roaringgirl said:
I think it was braking when free-dropping 80m of chain in 30m of water while it was gusting up to 35kts that shock-loaded the key. I cannot see anything except a shock load causing the damage I can see. The anchor has been pretty well-set in some places so perhaps it was my retrieval technique that caused it - I would pull the chain tight and let the swell do the work of pulling the anchor free, on reflection that would load the windlass key, I should use the chain hook to snub it for this operation (and will do in future).
Click to expand...
I can see that being the issue as well. A severe snatch load when setting in a rocky bottom could also create a similar snatch load. I can't see normal use being capable of the kind of damage you have found. We tend to drive forward over a well set anchor so the chain pulls the shaft of the anchor upwards. We also set the snubber before we power set as that keeps snatch loads off the windlass as well
 
Neeves said:
If you drop 80m of chain into 30m of water then the shock load is only the 30m of chain
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Being pedantic it would probably be more than 30m of chain plus some force from the boat laying back. I'm sure you of all people don't condone the dropping of 80m of chain on top of an anchor!

I do agree with you, just having some fun
 
lustyd said:
Being pedantic it would probably be more than 30m of chain plus some force from the boat laying back. I'm sure you of all people don't condone the dropping of 80m of chain on top of an anchor!

I do agree with you, just having some fun
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Lustyd - I enjoy a bit of dry humour - go for it!

I did read the Girl's previous posts and had noted they were dropping 80m of chain in a 35 knot wind and I had assumed there was an anchor on the end. Given the wind and the fact they dropped 80m (which is a lot of chain) I would have imagined that if any of it lay on top of the anchor it would be unlucky and the yacht would have being drifting back as the chain was deployed. If all was well - the anchor would have engaged and the yacht come to an abrupt stop - cushioned by the friction of the chain dragging over the seabed and then the catenary. I would not condone the practice. I prefer to deploy minimalist chain, say enough for a 3:1 scope. I'd then drift set or power set as if the anchor did not set at 3:1 there is something seriously wrong (the anchor fouled or smooth rock on the seabed etc). If it was smooth rock - you can feel it through the chain. We would then retrieve, as we have not much deployed, and move location slightly (though with drift it might not be necessary). Its one of the beauties of modern anchors - if they do not set at 3:1 (or even 2.5:1) there is an issue and its easy to retrieve (both anchor and situation). Having 80m deployed takes time to retrieve and a serious number of amps (but hopefully the engine is still running). Once the anchor is holding at 3:1, power set, deploy whatever is necessary (for us commonly 5:1) and then attach bridle - job done.

I'll not ignore the fact they were anchoring in a 35 knot wind - what possessed anyone to choose an anchorage with no shelter. :). . I know the tough members here describe how 35 knots is just a gentle breeze and not to be feared - personally a location with 35 knots, to which the yacht is exposed, is not the place we would choose to anchor. But we are wimps and prefer our pre dinner whisky unspilt (and frankly cannot afford to spill it). If we are anchoring after a long daytime passage Josephine is preparing dinner (and drinks) and I'm managing the anchor - and the wine glasses need to be stable.

Bragging rights - anchoring in 35 knots does not impress and as it is not a filmed SAS course for profit - we'ed choose better places for relaxation. Its not a competition. We do have the advantage in windy locations we can close the beach as we only draw 1m - shore side needs care as when the tide retreats and if there is chop it can be bouncy - and decidedly uncomfortable.

Some years ago we had a Storm forecast. We moved about 30nm to an anchorage where the wind gusted to all of 10 knots (most decent forecasts will give good notice of Storms). The storm as it passed over, we were sheltered behind a low wooded hill, was very similar to the engines of a 747 being warmed up. Whether it was storm force we don't know - our mast is not high enough. But yes we anchored in the face of a genuinely forecast storm ..... but

If its a 35 knot gust then the average will be about 20 knots - so not a 35 knot wind, to us,. We would feel the gust as our snubbers would stretch and you can 'feel' the stretch (a bit like falling onto a very soft and deep mattress or participating in a bungy jump). A snubber is a bungy cord for a yacht :)

Take care, stay safe

Jonathan
 
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Neeves said:
Lustyd - I enjoy a bit of dry humour - go for it!

I did read the Girl's previous posts and had noted they were dropping 80m of chain in a 35 knot wind and I had assumed there was an anchor on the end. Given the wind and the fact they dropped 80m (which is a lot of chain) I would have imagined that if any of it lay on top of the anchor it would be unlucky and the yacht would have being drifting back as the chain was deployed. If all was well - the anchor would have engaged and the yacht come to an abrupt stop - cushioned by the friction of the chain dragging over the seabed and then the catenary. I would not condone the practice. I prefer to deploy minimalist chain, say enough for a 3:1 scope. I'd then drift set or power set as if the anchor did not set at 3:1 there is something seriously wrong (the anchor fouled or smooth rock on the seabed etc). If it was smooth rock - you can feel it through the chain. We would then retrieve, as we have not much deployed, and move location slightly (though with drift it might not be necessary). Its one of the beauties of modern anchors - if they do not set at 3:1 (or even 2.5:1) there is an issue and its easy to retrieve (both anchor and situation). Having 80m deployed takes time to retrieve and a serious number of amps (but hopefully the engine is still running). Once the anchor is holding at 3:1, power set, deploy whatever is necessary (for us commonly 5:1) and then attach bridle - job done.

I'll not ignore the fact they were anchoring in a 35 knot wind - what possessed anyone to choose an anchorage with no shelter. :). . I know the tough members here describe how 35 knots is just a gentle breeze and not to be feared - personally a location with 35 knots, to which the yacht is exposed, is not the place we would choose to anchor. But we are wimps and prefer our pre dinner whisky unspilt (and frankly cannot afford to spill it). If we are anchoring after a long daytime passage Josephine is preparing dinner (and drinks) and I'm managing the anchor - and the wine glasses need to be stable.

Bragging rights - anchoring in 35 knots does not impress and as it is not a filmed SAS course for profit - we'ed choose better places for relaxation. Its not a competition. We do have the advantage in windy locations we can close the beach as we only draw 1m - shore side needs care as when the tide retreats and if there is chop it can be bouncy - and decidedly uncomfortable.

Some years ago we had a Storm forecast. We moved about 30nm to an anchorage where the wind gusted to all of 10 knots (most decent forecasts will give good notice of Storms). The storm as it passed over, we were sheltered behind a low wooded hill, was very similar to the engines of a 747 being warmed up. Whether it was storm force we don't know - our mast is not high enough. But yes we anchored in the face of a genuinely forecast storm ..... but

If its a 35 knot gust then the average will be about 20 knots - so not a 35 knot wind, to us,. We would feel the gust as our snubbers would stretch and you can 'feel' the stretch (a bit like falling onto a very soft and deep mattress or participating in a bungy jump). A snubber is a bungy cord for a yacht :)

Take care, stay safe

Jonathan
Click to expand...
In the Caribbean 35 kts in a squall is not uncommon. You can't always tell how much wind a squall will have. Normally you are anchor somewhere that is sheltered from wind driven waves so it's not really much of an issue as long as you are comfortable handling the boat in that wind. I guess it's similar in the Pacific where a reef provides protection from the sea but not from wind. It also makes a huge difference if the wind is 30degC and not 10degC. Somehow everything feels good in shorts and T shirt instead of foulies?
 
R.Ems said:
Power setting the anchor with the snubber set is a Good Idea which I haven't heard before.
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I would nor suggest power setting with a snubber.

When you are anchored and all set up then your snubber is attached and you have a lazy loop of chain freely hanging.

Snubbers fail - in just over 20 years we have had 2 fail - without any previous sign of deterioration. When they fail it is a sound like gunshot - you will not fail to notice. Failure of a snubber can be from a variety of cause abrasion being but one. But snubbers fail as a result of repeated cyclical loading. If you power set you are stressing the snubber - why do it?

However as your snubber can fail, and I'm talking about one that noticeably stretches - commonly it will be at least 10m long then you need a fall back snubber - something that will protect the windlass in case of snubber failure. This 'snubber' could be a chain lock. Ours is a very short dyneema strop with a chain hook (and we use the same device to secure the anchor on passage). Our dyneema strop is attached to a strong point independent of the windlass. If you are to power set - do not use the long elastic snubber - use the chain lock or some other device, like our dyneema strop with chain hook. If you have sat at anchor for some days and your anchor is an efficient example of the new designs then when you come to retreive it can take time to break the anchor out. A chain lock or inelastic snubber with chain hook allows you to tension the rode (to break the anchor out) without stressing the windlass. This sort snubber is thus multi functional and is cheap as chips, short length of rope (as strong as the chain) a decent chain hook - the common problem is - what to attach to?

If you use the elastic snubber - you reverse up, the yacht gains momentum, the catenary straightens but eventually the energy stored in the catenary and elasticity (potential energy) is more than the energy produced by the engine and momentum (your momentum decreases as the catenary and elasticity come into play) - you have a transient maximum tension in the rode and then the yacht moves forward. You can continue this cycle as many times as you want. But the transient maximum tension will not set the anchor efficiently - the seabed has little time to adjust. If you use the snubber - you can note how much it stretches - which might indicate to you its too beefy - you need stretch.

But a dyneema strop or mechanical chain lock only has the catenary to contend with (and if you do the power set at 3:1 - less catenary) and you are not stressing your elastic snubber.

Snubbers, like sails, like sheets and halyards are consumables, we carry spares (snubbers make good mooring lines and can be used in combinations as shore lines).

But snubbers are not THAT expensive - if you are flush......

There is no one right answer in anchoring, it depends on your yacht, you (the skipper) your ground tackle - you have to make the most of what you have which may be different to the yacht alongside you.

Jonathan
 
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