LM 27/Finnsailer 29

[nevis768]

Hi All,
I'm considering an LM 27 or Finnsailer 29 for sailing on the Irish sea, west coast of Scotland. I'm a bit of softy these days and would like a covered helm position. I presently have an open boat, trailer sailer, and have had enough of getting cold. I realise I will be sacrificing sailing performance for comfort. Any views or experience of these boats, particularly their sailing performance or lack of it. Will I have to motorsail everywhere?

 

[Supertramp]

An LM 27 will sail but a Finnsailer 29 is more motor than sail. Look at "sailing cos I love it" on YouTube for LM 27 insight (his is a Scanyacht though). Like any long, shallow keel boat with modest sail area don't expect to go very close to the wind but the offset is great stability, shoal draft and the ability to worry less about lobster pots. I have an outside and inside helm position and really only use the inside helm if it rains or on watch at night.

 

[TSB240]

No need to sacrifice sailing performance. This is the ultimate performer in the greenhouse category of yachts.
https://www.yachtworld.co.uk/yacht/1994-lm-vitesse-33-cabrio-8785586/

 

[Sticky Fingers]

No need to sacrifice sailing performance. This is the ultimate performer in the greenhouse category of yachts.
1994 LM Vitesse 33 Cabrio Cruiser for sale - YachtWorld

That’s an unusual thing, I like it.

 

[fredrussell]

Yep, that would do it.

 

[DownWest]

Very nice! But maybe a question of budget?

 

[nevis768]

An LM 27 will sail but a Finnsailer 29 is more motor than sail. Look at "sailing cos I love it" on YouTube for LM 27 insight (his is a Scanyacht though). Like any long, shallow keel boat with modest sail area don't expect to go very close to the wind but the offset is great stability, shoal draft and the ability to worry less about lobster pots. I have an outside and inside helm position and really only use the inside helm if it rains or on watch at night.

I was hoping it might be the other way round because I saw the LM 27 had a figure of 30 sq m for sale and the Finn sailer 29 had 37 sq m. The larger LM's are out of my budget.

 

[billyfish]

I have a Degero 28. Just sailed across lyme Bay average speed 5 kts in 8-14 kts of breeze, great passage, who says it can't sail with a lid.

 

[nevis768]

I have a Degero 28. Just sailed across lyme Bay average speed 5 kts in 8-14 kts of breeze, great passage, who says it can't sail with a lid.

Hi Billyfish,
Thanks for your reply. I looked at the Degero 28, its looks great, seems to have similar sail area to the Finnsailer 29, so that's encouraging.

 

[ChromeDome]

LM is a different boat compared to Finnsailer - in several ways.

A text from the LM Club is attached for you - translated from Danish

 

[nevis768]

Thanks for that document, very helpful, and kind of you to post it. I can see the LM is highly regarded. It is hard to find much info on the Finnsailer 29, anybody have any experience of how one sails?

 

[oldbloke]

Don't forget the LM28 which is fin and skeg

 

[LittleSister]

I have an LM27, and I am very pleased with it. So I'm rather prejudiced in their favour. (I am not familiar with the FInnsailor.).

Having read a range of magazine reviews for magazines, verbal and written comments from owners and from my own experience. I can say that there is a consensus that ithe LM27 sails much better and faster than most motor-sailors, and than what you would think from her bluff bows and chunky looking hull.

Advantages include - Kettle is within arms reach of the person on helm! Can be steered under cover in the wheelhouse by wheel, or in the open, by tiller. from the cockpit (when the wheel can be easily disconnected/reconnected if required); the low freeboard midships, which makes getting on a and off pontoons and dinghies, while pronounced sheer guess a high sterna nd even higher bows, so a dry boat; while the wheelhouse is upright looking it is actually the same height or lower than later sportier designs of various makes; there is no bridge deck, so you can see straight through the boat and it's just a shallow step down from the cockpit to the wheelhouse and two shallow steps from there to the saloon. This makes the boat feel really spacious and airy for its size (on the other hand, probably bnot the best arrangement if you're planning on sailing in the Roaring Forties). The early versions (Mk 1) to about 1979 had a wonderful old-fashioned upright wooden and glass 'butterfly' hatch above the main salon, which is great for light and ventilation (but requires a canvas cover over underwater to keep the water out), while the later Mk 2 has a conventional modern flat hatch in that position, and aluminium framed, rather than rubber seals around the windows. The Mk 2 had an all wooden cockpit and was not self draining (it drains into the bilge), the later Mk 2 had more GRP in the cockpit and was self-draining. (There wasn't a clear cut-off between the two versions, so boats around 79/80 might have a mix of features from the different versions. Both versions came with a cockpit canopy which transfrroms the cockpit into another room when moored/anchorred (you can sleep another two in there, but who wants that many people aboard)?). Canopies, sails, mast and fittings etc. can still be bought off-the-shelf from LM's original suppliers of these. There's a huge number of these boats (over 1,500 built - the most popular motor-sailer ever), especially in Denmark, Netherlands, but also in the UK, and a smattering of them all around Europe and the USA, so lots of advice and knowledge available., including a very impressive (Danish language) owners association/website/Facebook page, an English language owners' forum (see below), etc. (There are quite a lot of LM27s in the UK, some LM24s, but fewer of the earlier smaller LMs and later larger ones. ) Most of those imported into the UK have had the rear of the wheelhouse - open in the original design and still common in mainland Europe - enclosed, either by an owner, the UK importers (Scanyacht) or factory fitted on late versions. I could go on and on!

The downsides - does not want to point higher than, say, 50 degrees from the wind (you can make them point higher, but you'll just go slower and make more leeway), but flies off the wind and there's a decent sized motor if you want to go dead to wind. Being shallow draft and rounded hull form (which is modelled on traditional Baltic sailing fishing boats) they tend to roll quite a lot in certain seas. (This can be mitigated, but not eliminated, by adjusting your course relative to the direction and frequency of the waves.) Generally very well engineered, but potential weaknesses are forestay bow fitting (easily fixed solution can be found the websites) and forward lower shroud anchoring (various slightly more complicated or aesthetically compromised solutions available). Unusual tapered pin rudder locking arrangement requires annual checking. Handling at close quarters, being long keeled, is bit challenging, but nowhere near as bad as many long-keelers. (Extending rudder or fitting bow thruster are popular mods.) Not much galley worktop space. Only one seat in the wheelhouse (though various owner mogs have addressed this. Looks considered old-fashioned, but not yet classic. Heads compartment quire small. I'm struggling to think of much else..

 

[ChromeDome]

Not knowing your budget, but if looking for a motorsailer that performs like a sailboat, types like Coronet Elvström 38 (the one with the bulb), Nordship (e.g.28) or Hallberg-Rassy (94) may be of interest.










Still motorsailers but in club races much feared by others in the class as they leave most behind.

 

[nevis768]

I have an LM27, and I am very pleased with it. So I'm rather prejudiced in their favour. (I am not familiar with the FInnsailor.).

Having read a range of magazine reviews for magazines, verbal and written comments from owners and from my own experience. I can say that there is a consensus that ithe LM27 sails much better and faster than most motor-sailors, and than what you would think from her bluff bows and chunky looking hull.

Advantages include - Kettle is within arms reach of the person on helm! Can be steered under cover in the wheelhouse by wheel, or in the open, by tiller. from the cockpit (when the wheel can be easily disconnected/reconnected if required); the low freeboard midships, which makes getting on a and off pontoons and dinghies, while pronounced sheer guess a high sterna nd even higher bows, so a dry boat; while the wheelhouse is upright looking it is actually the same height or lower than later sportier designs of various makes; there is no bridge deck, so you can see straight through the boat and it's just a shallow step down from the cockpit to the wheelhouse and two shallow steps from there to the saloon. This makes the boat feel really spacious and airy for its size (on the other hand, probably bnot the best arrangement if you're planning on sailing in the Roaring Forties). The early versions (Mk 1) to about 1979 had a wonderful old-fashioned upright wooden and glass 'butterfly' hatch above the main salon, which is great for light and ventilation (but requires a canvas cover over underwater to keep the water out), while the later Mk 2 has a conventional modern flat hatch in that position, and aluminium framed, rather than rubber seals around the windows. The Mk 2 had an all wooden cockpit and was not self draining (it drains into the bilge), the later Mk 2 had more GRP in the cockpit and was self-draining. (There wasn't a clear cut-off between the two versions, so boats around 79/80 might have a mix of features from the different versions. Both versions came with a cockpit canopy which transfrroms the cockpit into another room when moored/anchorred (you can sleep another two in there, but who wants that many people aboard)?). Canopies, sails, mast and fittings etc. can still be bought off-the-shelf from LM's original suppliers of these. There's a huge number of these boats (over 1,500 built - the most popular motor-sailer ever), especially in Denmark, Netherlands, but also in the UK, and a smattering of them all around Europe and the USA, so lots of advice and knowledge available., including a very impressive (Danish language) owners association/website/Facebook page, an English language owners' forum (see below), etc. (There are quite a lot of LM27s in the UK, some LM24s, but fewer of the earlier smaller LMs and later larger ones. ) Most of those imported into the UK have had the rear of the wheelhouse - open in the original design and still common in mainland Europe - enclosed, either by an owner, the UK importers (Scanyacht) or factory fitted on late versions. I could go on and on!

The downsides - does not want to point higher than, say, 50 degrees from the wind (you can make them point higher, but you'll just go slower and make more leeway), but flies off the wind and there's a decent sized motor if you want to go dead to wind. Being shallow draft and rounded hull form (which is modelled on traditional Baltic sailing fishing boats) they tend to roll quite a lot in certain seas. (This can be mitigated, but not eliminated, by adjusting your course relative to the direction and frequency of the waves.) Generally very well engineered, but potential weaknesses are forestay bow fitting (easily fixed solution can be found the websites) and forward lower shroud anchoring (various slightly more complicated or aesthetically compromised solutions available). Unusual tapered pin rudder locking arrangement requires annual checking. Handling at close quarters, being long keeled, is bit challenging, but nowhere near as bad as many long-keelers. (Extending rudder or fitting bow thruster are popular mods.) Not much galley worktop space. Only one seat in the wheelhouse (though various owner mogs have addressed this. Looks considered old-fashioned, but not yet classic. Heads compartment quire small. I'm struggling to think of much else..

Thanks for taking the time to do such a full and interesting reply.

 

[nevis768]

Not knowing your budget, but if looking for a motorsailer that performs like a sailboat, types like Coronet Elvström 38 (the one with the bulb), Nordship (e.g.28) or Hallberg-Rassy (94) may be of interest.
View attachment 163814



View attachment 163813


View attachment 163815


Still motorsailers but in club races much feared by others in the class as they leave most behind.

Thanks for the suggestions, budget up to 15k.

 

[LittleSister]

I think that finding a boat in the right condition and price/equipment ratio could be as important, or more important, than the exact model you might want. Neither of the boats you mention are found in large numbers in the UK.

I also realise I previously failed to address your specific question; 'Will I have to motor everywhere in a motor-sailer?'. For the LM27 at least, the answer is certainly not.

 

[nevis768]

I think that finding a boat in the right condition and price/equipment ratio could be as important, or more important, than the exact model you might want. Neither of the boats you mention are found in large numbers in the UK.

I also realise I previously failed to address your specific question; 'Will I have to motor everywhere in a motor-sailer?'. For the LM27 at least, the answer is certainly not.

Thanks again for your encouraging comments Little sister.

 

[ChromeDome]

Will I have to motorsail everywhere?

Depends on the boat, crew, where you go, time available to get where you want and, not least, the philosophy behind choosing a motorsailer in the first place.

Some skippers are rather insisting on sails even if no wind..

 

[billyfish]

If 15 K is the budget may I humbly suggest a LM. I looked at a couple before I found my Degero and they are more in that price bracket because of the age.