Lithium batteries worth buying?

[geem]

Many of these advantages are interrelated.

Cheaper by cost per year per unit of useable capacity is what I am referring to (sorry, but I was trying to be concise) and that is a function of their long life and reliability and cost. Of course I can buy a lithium battery for less than £500, but it would be better to spend a little more. Cheaper in the long run and better in use.

Losses do matter if you struggle with solar power for example. For some that 20% or so round trip loss may break their solar sufficiency.

My lithiums won’t catch fire. I don’t have the type that do. Plus I won’t stab them with a 2“ stake. Yours on the other hand can catch fire (explode to be precise) as they have you said. They can also crack and spew sulphuric acid all over the boat. It happened to me once. I maintain they are safer if you get the right ones.

Peukert, discharge losses, voltage drop and ability to discharge fully all combine to give my no.10. It also interplays with the low management issue. No. 11. They are just so much more forgiving in use. It means you can arrive at a destination with almost flat batteries and still do stuff. Power the bowthruster at full power, ditto the windlass to do a couple of anchor resets in deep water for example. You can avoid these problems with lead and that goes then to the management effort issue. You say you have not had a problem with some of these issues. With lead I certainly did. Not with lithium.

I forgot another advantage. No capacity loss with time. Leave six months on the hard without paying for power, with the safety of an isolated battery and no charger running.

I appreciate for many people, you included it seems, they don’t offer much. The real test is what would I choose next time. I’ve had both types twice over and like the advantages of lithium a lot. My fifth set will be lithium without any hesitation. For me, lead is dead.

Lead acid don't catch fire. We don't do battery management. It looks after itself. We don't discharge below 85%. That not a management issue it's just what happens
No losses in a yard. We have solar
You are looking at the advantages from a perspective of no solar. You use a generator to charge. We never do that. You talk about battery management because that's what you have to do. You decide when to charge the batteries. We don't do that. They charge themselves.
We don't arrive at a destination with almost flat batteries. We arrive with full batteries. We have lots of solar and a towed generator.
As I said, you are describing benefits for you. Cruisers with a successful lead/ solar setup won't recognise some of the benefits you describe as they don't charge the batteries with just a generator and no solar.

 

[Kelpie]

Something that crossed my mind after seeing the 'cross pond' bits and possibilities of distant cruises ....

Its fine cruising 'developed' areas - where any problem with the Lithiums can be sorted - but start going further afield - what happens then ? The old Lead Acid is known worldwide even in poorest / least developed locations.

I know its extreme - and for majority - its weekend or maybe longer coastal stuff - so not an issue.

The matter of discharging cells partially on leaving the boat ... with LiFe / LiFePo4 - this is actually not so important as with LiPo - where leaving full charged damages the cells. Its why dedicated Lithium chargers have Storage mode to bring LiPo cells down to storage level (3.7 - 3.85V per cell). LiFe / LiFePo4 cells can be left near full charged ready for use .,.. with minimal degradation.

I suppose I could spend £60 on a spare BMS to keep in store.
I could have a cell go bad but I'm not going to carry spare cells, you'd really want a matched set and then you might as well actually use them.
Nothing else in my setup is lithium specific. I use the same MPPTs as I would have used for any other battery type.

But I accept that my use case is not typical.

 

[Pete7]

I will be following how my pontoon neighbour gets on with his new batteries -they spend much more time away at anchor than we would certainly but whether they have longer cruising plans I don’t know. Luckily we manage happily with our AGM even when venturing down to West Country or France . A decent stainless arch with solar panels seems a better investment to investigate.

We now search out some of the more unusual locations to visit rather than the MDL/Premier marina at £35 a night. The likes of Lyme Regis or Totnes are favourite locations, as is Keyhaven. Sometimes you might get a water tap but otherwise you're on your own.

Agreed the arch and large solar panel should come first and made a huge difference to the way we charge batteries. Lithium was the next obvious change enabling alternative cooking solutions.

As previously said, we all have choices and if mooring in Yarmouth then plugging in to shore power each night is the way folk want to sail, then Tranona is right, nothing to be gained.

The wobbly pontoons at Lyme, but a superb view for the evening and protection from the swell.

 

[Refueler]

I have just two Lead acids ... no solar ... just alternator and shore connection ... I don't run fridges / freezers / other 'luxuries unless engine is on.

These are example spots I cruise ... anything from 7 to 10days ... Swedish Archipelago ..... no shore power :

KISS ...

 

[lustyd]

KISS is all well and good, but I gave up camping years ago. It's not a crime to enjoy some "luxury" not that I'd consider cold food storage a luxury. Believe it or not the ability to enjoy these places doesn't go down as your boat gets better. Sometimes it even goes up as you enjoy an icey cold beer on deck.

 

[Refueler]

My comment KISS is precisely that ...

Most boaters do not need or want to change from simple power ...

Installing Lithium is not simply a drop in job unless you are willing to mortgage your wallet.

As to cold beer .... my Cold Box runs fine thank you when engines on ... and is well insulated to stay cold when not.

As others said - it all depends on what you want to do ... and what your real needs are. I find that two common based Lead Acids sustain my needs for up to 2 weeks cruising .... just a matter of knowing what power consumption vs charge in needed.

 

[lustyd]

With respect you don't speak for most boaters. These threads are increasingly common, so many people obviously do want and need more.

Oh so it's you ruining the quiet anchorages with your engine to keep the fridge cool?! That'll be increasingly frowned upon as Lithium gains traction!

 

[Refueler]

With respect you don't speak for most boaters. These threads are increasingly common, so many people obviously do want and need more.

Common because people ask questions ... the same people come up with their installs ... which are generally less than half the people in the thread ... so I suggest majority are still old fashioned ?

Oh so it's you ruining the quiet anchorages with your engine to keep the fridge cool?! That'll be increasingly frowned upon as Lithium gains traction!

Here we go - assuming rubbish ... Please copy and paste where I said I run engine in quiet or even any anchorage ?? Being a motor-sailer - I get enough charge from the limited engine run during passage making.

 

[Kelpie]

Installing Lithium is not simply a drop in job unless you are willing to mortgage your wallet.

It's this "Lithium is expensive" line that bugs me.
I'm really glad I did not listen to the nay sayers. I am about £300 better off because I didn't buy Trojans. Not to mention the gradual savings in gas which are accumulating daily (it's about EUR25 a bottle now so that's actually a pretty significant expense for a liveaboard).

Your secondhand lead acid batteries are a very good idea for the average weekend sailor. But we are all different. Nobody goes full time liveaboard with a bunch of secondhand FLA.

Look at what you need, choose wisely. But don't assume you cannot afford lithium. The DIY route is pretty straightforward if you are willing to put in some time researching it, and in my case cost less than the standard deep-cycle option.

 

[geem]

I have just two Lead acids ... no solar ... just alternator and shore connection ... I don't run fridges / freezers / other 'luxuries unless engine is on.

These are example spots I cruise ... anything from 7 to 10days ... Swedish Archipelago ..... no shore power :

KISS ...

So you cruising is more like camping. Ours is more like a hotel. Showers, unlimited hot and cold water, ice in the drinks, films to watch if we want. Run the full size vacuum cleaner,
Or use the sewing machine.It'sritisim but different requirements need different solutions. We couldn't do what we do with your set up. You probably won't want our set up. Horse

It's this "Lithium is expensive" line that bugs me.
I'm really glad I did not listen to the nay sayers. I am about £300 better off because I didn't buy Trojans. Not to mention the gradual savings in gas which are accumulating daily (it's about EUR25 a bottle now so that's actually a pretty significant expense for a liveaboard).

Your secondhand lead acid batteries are a very good idea for the average weekend sailor. But we are all different. Nobody goes full time liveaboard with a bunch of secondhand FLA.

Look at what you need, choose wisely. But don't assume you cannot afford lithium. The DIY route is pretty straightforward if you are willing to put in some time researching it, and in my case cost less than the standard deep-cycle option.

Pantaneus won't let me install my own. It needs to be professional I stalled lithium. Are you insured?

 

[Poey50]

It's this "Lithium is expensive" line that bugs me.
I'm really glad I did not listen to the nay sayers. I am about £300 better off because I didn't buy Trojans. Not to mention the gradual savings in gas which are accumulating daily (it's about EUR25 a bottle now so that's actually a pretty significant expense for a liveaboard).

Your secondhand lead acid batteries are a very good idea for the average weekend sailor. But we are all different. Nobody goes full time liveaboard with a bunch of secondhand FLA.

Look at what you need, choose wisely. But don't assume you cannot afford lithium. The DIY route is pretty straightforward if you are willing to put in some time researching it, and in my case cost less than the standard deep-cycle option.

This is good on comparative costs of battery types.. But real value for money of LFP is only realised if people look after their asset and don't sell on the boat. For 'forever boats' owned by full-time cruisers LFP will win hands down in any lifetime cost per watt hour contest. Rod Collins' 12 year old 400ah Winston pack is still reading over 400ah using very accurate test equipment. In comparison, cheap drop-ins that are overcharged may lose 30% of their capacity in a year.

 

[Refueler]

Isn't the matter of what you do with your boat ?

How many on here are liveaboards or actually push batterys to limits ?

You can accuse me of 'camping' ... have Ice in your cocktails ......... but that's the world of boating ... wide ranging use. I just post the other side of the coin and use ...

Once you decide what facilities you want - the power demand to run them ... then you start looking at how you satisfy that demand ...

Each to their own.

 

[Kelpie]

Pantaneus won't let me install my own. It needs to be professional I stalled lithium. Are you insured?

We're with GJW who seem to be pretty relaxed about LFP.

 

[Refueler]

One day - some of you guys will dump the UK Insurance guys and their hyped up conditions / premiums.

For a number of years before my boat left UK and then I continued with same outfit in Baltics .......... German based Mannheimer Nautica ........... no silly conditions or clauses .. no geographical limits ... no survey ..... seriously less cost than any UK offers ... valid worldwide.

I have no commercial interest to promote them ... they just did the biz.

 

[geem]

We're with GJW who seem to be pretty relaxed about LFP.

Will they insure you for Caribbean? We really struggled to find an insurer who would cover us for the Caribbean. I was warned off GJW by my surveyor.

 

[Kelpie]

Will they insure you for Caribbean? We really struggled to find an insurer who would cover us for the Caribbean. I was warned off GJW by my surveyor.

I'm working on the assumption that we will be 3rd part only once we leave Europe. I'll get some quotes but not expecting to get affordable coverage. I don't want to end up spending 10% of what we paid for the boat on insurance every year...

 

[Tranona]

Once you decide what facilities you want - the power demand to run them ... then you start looking at how you satisfy that demand ...

Maybe not liveaboards like geem and Kelpie but increasingly people are adding more and more electrical items, and the sort of items you can use on 12v is increasing. A new 35' boat will have at least 200Ah as standard and once you tick the extras box for the nav package that will increase to 300, then the bow thruster means another 100Ah bow battery. That is what my Bav 33 had, plus the engine start and it was adequate for my frugal single handed few days away with no night sailing. A couple who made full use of everything on board plus maybe adding radar would be on or over the limit without at least adding another battery and solar.

Of course you can survive on less. My GH has only 190Ah house plus start and 100Ah bow battery for the windlass and bow thruster, but I have no fridge, no radar, no pressurised water. To put that in perspective, when it was built (1979) it just one 100Ah for everything! with an option of an extra the same size. Times have changed, and as you can see from some of the examples here many people are getting to the limits of the "standard" either because they want to run more things or stay independent of shore facilities longer. In my view the biggest improvements in the last 10 years or so have come from AGMs as a fallout from the increasing use of this technology in the automotive world which has resulted in significant increase in potential life greater than the price premium, plus the better charge and discharge characteristics. Add in better alternator charging and solar and the limit gets raised before the next big leap in technology.

This is exactly what the original question was about - the same question as "my next door neighbour has just got a Tesla 3 - should I do the same?". For some, like my son in law the answer is yes, for me no - but my next car, if I live long enough is likely to be a hybrid.

 

[geem]

One day - some of you guys will dump the UK Insurance guys and their hyped up conditions / premiums.

For a number of years before my boat left UK and then I continued with same outfit in Baltics .......... German based Mannheimer Nautica ........... no silly conditions or clauses .. no geographical limits ... no survey ..... seriously less cost than any UK offers ... valid worldwide.

I have no commercial interest to promote them ... they just did the biz.

There are hardly any insurers offering cover in the Caribbean. Getting good insurance in Europe is super easy

 

[Refueler]

Maybe not liveaboards like geem and Kelpie but increasingly people are adding more and more electrical items, and the sort of items you can use on 12v is increasing. A new 35' boat will have at least 200Ah as standard and once you tick the extras box for the nav package that will increase to 300, then the bow thruster means another 100Ah bow battery. That is what my Bav 33 had, plus the engine start and it was adequate for my frugal single handed few days away with no night sailing. A couple who made full use of everything on board plus maybe adding radar would be on or over the limit without at least adding another battery and solar.

Of course you can survive on less. My GH has only 190Ah house plus start and 100Ah bow battery for the windlass and bow thruster, but I have no fridge, no radar, no pressurised water. To put that in perspective, when it was built (1979) it just one 100Ah for everything! with an option of an extra the same size. Times have changed, and as you can see from some of the examples here many people are getting to the limits of the "standard" either because they want to run more things or stay independent of shore facilities longer. In my view the biggest improvements in the last 10 years or so have come from AGMs as a fallout from the increasing use of this technology in the automotive world which has resulted in significant increase in potential life greater than the price premium, plus the better charge and discharge characteristics. Add in better alternator charging and solar and the limit gets raised before the next big leap in technology.

This is exactly what the original question was about - the same question as "my next door neighbour has just got a Tesla 3 - should I do the same?". For some, like my son in law the answer is yes, for me no - but my next car, if I live long enough is likely to be a hybrid.

You have my 100% on that post ...

As time goes on - things evolve, whether better or not is opinion. bit like size of starter boats ........... not that long ago - a 26ft boat like the Centaur was a second or third follow on boat ... with many starting with 15 - 18ft'rs or dinghys.
My Father refused to have battery lights etc. on board - so it was tilley lamp .. the battery was only to start the engine.

As I posted earlier - the demand is calculated - then battery setup is dictated by that. As power total goes up - then of course space & weight saving gain importance.

 

[Refueler]

There are hardly any insurers offering cover in the Caribbean. Getting good insurance in Europe is super easy

Someone like Nautima as I mentioned do not specify geographical limitations - so I would expect them to offer cover.