Liquid Vortex trial starts

[alant]

Did they get lost then?! FFS - is that it?

Would they have taken them to court just for an un-illuminated compass? I doubt it ...

They tend to throw any appropriate charge aginst a plaintive & stack them up.
The guy who ran amuck in Cardiff, was charged with Murder etc, but also included was 'dangerous driving', which would in most peoples view, have been implicit anyway.

 

[alant]

It appears from Bav 34's post that a sailing school is expected to operate under the Merchant Shipping Act. If that is the case, and unlike me, who was unaware of that fact, JM & CS were aware it is right and proper that the case is tried. After all, the first time is an accident, the second coincedence but the third time is on purpose. IMO of course.

Any vessel registered under the Merchant Shipping Act, has the same operating rules. Being "unaware" aint an excuse, so 'you' are as responsible for any crew, as the HL skipper.

 

[alant]

And you think the RNLI would not be aware of this.................its certainly becoming an amusing thread

Probably, but some on here might not.

A 'charter' motor boat that I had been skipper on for a previous season, when out with the new 'experienced crew/skipper', sank near the Needles a few years ago, specifically due to that happening.
Nosedived to the bottom very quickly.

 

[fireball]

Probably, but some on here might not.

A 'charter' motor boat that I had been skipper on for a previous season, when out with the new 'experienced crew/skipper', sank near the Needles a few years ago, specifically due to that happening.
Nosedived to the bottom very quickly.

Sounds like a bad design!!

I've deliberately done stops in a RIB to see the affects - yes we did ship some water, but nowhere near enough to affect the boat - just enough to get our feet wet (as we were wearing wetsuits it's a non-issue!)

But for a wave to throw the helm forward it must've been a huge wave - and totally out of keeping with the rest of them .. ? Either that or the helm got the steering wrong ... quite possible of you're tired ..

 

[alant]

Sounds like a bad design!!

I've deliberately done stops in a RIB to see the affects - yes we did ship some water, but nowhere near enough to affect the boat - just enough to get our feet wet (as we were wearing wetsuits it's a non-issue!)

But for a wave to throw the helm forward it must've been a huge wave - and totally out of keeping with the rest of them .. ? Either that or the helm got the steering wrong ... quite possible of you're tired ..

There were doors that opened at the stern, onto a platform which was being used by divers. Design was ok, 'if' the doors were shut + the other doors (2) which were supposed to act as waterproof bulkheads, something the 'new' skipper/crew seemed to be oblivious of. All were apparently open when it happened, plus the divers + heavy gear were at the stern, making the freeboard much less back there.

Went down like a Das Boot!

 

[A1Sailor]

...however in this case the Lifeboat came out because there was a request for help, not that there was a request for help because a lifeboat came out and swamped them!!!

When was the request for help?
Did Dover Coastguard not ask the lifeboat to launch, stand by Liquid Vortex in case help was required, and accompany her into harbour? I am under the impression that assistance was requested only after the damage caused by the freak wave.
I could be wrong - and only ask in the hope that the thread might be accurate. Whatever the sequence of events, it seems to have been a good call by HM Coastguard. Well done Sir!

 

[awol]

As I understand it LV put out a Pan-Pan advising of their intentions and 5 ses-sick crew members which led to the CG requesting a launch. The article in http://ecomyachting.com/ about half way down seems to cover what the prosecution claim happened. It's all been posted before but some might benefit from reading it again. Of course, I do not guarantee the veracity.

 

[jimi]

When was the request for help?
Did Dover Coastguard not ask the lifeboat to launch, stand by Liquid Vortex in case help was required, and accompany her into harbour? I am under the impression that assistance was requested only after the damage caused by the freak wave.
I could be wrong - and only ask in the hope that the thread might be accurate. Whatever the sequence of events, it seems to have been a good call by HM Coastguard. Well done Sir!

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3817026&postcount=61

 

[jimi]

this is worth a read!


http://www.dungenesslifeboat.org.uk...ness-silver-medal-rescue-full-rescue-scenario

 

[Blue5]

this is worth a read!


http://www.dungenesslifeboat.org.uk...ness-silver-medal-rescue-full-rescue-scenario

That would seem pretty conclusive to me that they did need assistance, no doubt Troll-of-toadhall will be along shortly to argue otherwise...........

 

[A1Sailor]

Thanks Jimi
Both the links confirm that, as I thought, LV asked for assistance immediately after the "Freak Wave".

 

[fireball]

this is worth a read!


http://www.dungenesslifeboat.org.uk...ness-silver-medal-rescue-full-rescue-scenario

Assuming accurate reporting - then it is as their title says - Seven lives saved.

 

[A1Sailor]

That would seem pretty conclusive to me that they did need assistance, no doubt Troll-of-toadhall will be along shortly to argue otherwise...........

I doubt if The Toad will be along to argue - and before you ask I am not he!

The point I wish to make is that there is a huge difference of being in need of assistance and asking for it. Yes - a PanPan was issued, advising that much of the crew was incapacitated and that they were making for Dover.
The actions of CS and JM are being discussed in Court. If it is deemed that CS should have asked for assistance earlier, but didn't, he might need to learn the Fosbury Flop.
I wonder if they are each being defended by separate lawyers...


EDIT: From the information provided by RNLI, MAIB and HMCG I would agree that lives were saved... They should be commended.
Fosbury Flop = for the high jump!

 

[johndove]

Latest

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/10018020.Sailors_acquitted_of_four_of_seven_charges_in_court/

 

[Pye_End]

this is worth a read!


http://www.dungenesslifeboat.org.uk...ness-silver-medal-rescue-full-rescue-scenario

Interesting account.

So when they arrived on scene after the Pan Pan, but before the Mayday and big wave - 'An inflated liferaft was observed tethered to the stern'.

 

[John.edwards]

Sounds like a bad design!!

I've deliberately done stops in a RIB to see the affects - yes we did ship some water, but nowhere near enough to affect the boat - just enough to get our feet wet (as we were wearing wetsuits it's a non-issue!)

But for a wave to throw the helm forward it must've been a huge wave - and totally out of keeping with the rest of them .. ? Either that or the helm got the steering wrong ... quite possible of you're tired ..

http://www.dungenesslifeboat.org.uk...ness-silver-medal-rescue-full-rescue-scenario

rnli arrived 0615. freak wave at 0620. dont usually see displacement waves lagging by 5 minutes

 

[Resolution]

this is worth a read!


http://www.dungenesslifeboat.org.uk...ness-silver-medal-rescue-full-rescue-scenario

Anybody who gets out of bed at 5 in the morning on a dark stormy winter night in order to aid a yacht in distress is a hero in my book.

Assuming the account is factual, the situation was far worse than the short video clip and CS's statements would have led one to believe.

 

[fireball]

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/10018020.Sailors_acquitted_of_four_of_seven_charges_in_court/

Ta!

After hearing evidence from the prosecution for more than a week, Judge Ralls considered there was insufficient evidence for Manning, 36, of Pluto Road Eastleigh, to be tried further on two charges relating to standard operating procedures and failing to contact HM Coastguard.

Judge Ralls also asked the jury to do the same for Sturrock, 50, of Much Wenlock, Shropshire, who was found not guilty for safety breaches regarding standard operating procedures and sailing at night without proper equipment.

Both Sturrock and Manning deny the three remaining charges which relate to checking weather forecasts, planning of the voyage and failing to identify and assess risks to the vessel and crew.

The trial continues on three remaining charges.

I still wonder what they were referring to with the "sailing at night without proper equipment" ...

It'll be interesting to hear the outcome on the forecasts and safety risks ...

I know we've pretty much all condemned CS for his actions in setting sail into a F10 forecast - but in reflection, I think he achieved a lot more than many of us would - not withstanding his errant judgement on proceeding - he shorthandedly skippered a racing boat in appalling conditions and with assistance, managed to get the boat back into port safely.
Nobody has suggested he panicked or froze - so I must assume he just got on with the job in hand - calling a PAN PAN when the majority of the crew are incapacitated is not an easy step to take as it's the first indication that his plans have failed - was he conjouled into doing that or did he do so un-prompted? Don't forget - seasick passengers may put pressure on the skipper too as they may just want the experience to end - it is not necessarily a rational choice by them and the skipper has to decide on the best course of action for the whole vessel.

Of course, in the end, being Macho Man doesn't excuse his apparent poor planning and poor decisions leading up to the events that occured.

 

[jimi]

Ta!


I still wonder what they were referring to with the "sailing at night without proper equipment" ...

It'll be interesting to hear the outcome on the forecasts and safety risks ...

I know we've pretty much all condemned CS for his actions in setting sail into a F10 forecast - but in reflection, I think he achieved a lot more than many of us would - not withstanding his errant judgement on proceeding - he shorthandedly skippered a racing boat in appalling conditions and with assistance, managed to get the boat back into port safely.
Nobody has suggested he panicked or froze - so I must assume he just got on with the job in hand - calling a PAN PAN when the majority of the crew are incapacitated is not an easy step to take as it's the first indication that his plans have failed - was he conjouled into doing that or did he do so un-prompted? Don't forget - seasick passengers may put pressure on the skipper too as they may just want the experience to end - it is not necessarily a rational choice by them and the skipper has to decide on the best course of action for the whole vessel.

Of course, in the end, being Macho Man doesn't excuse his apparent poor planning and poor decisions leading up to the events that occured.

However a deployed liferaft and blown out sail do indicate a situation that has got out of control in some way.

 

[Talulah]

... calling a PAN PAN when the majority of the crew are incapacitated is not an easy step to take as it's the first indication that his plans have failed - was he conjouled into doing that or did he do so un-prompted?

I have on one occasion done a PAN PAN to Solent Coastguard requesting medical advice.
Coming back across Channel in lumpy seas I had a crew member in tears because her back was playing up. I found out then that she had a history of back trouble.
One of my primary reasons for the call was because of litigation issues. There was nothing much that could be done other than Paracetamol and making the crew member as comfortable as possible. However, in the back of my mind I was thinking about any criticsm that could follow should her situation deteriate and I had not done anything.