rotrax
Well-Known Member
Fully aware of that. Thank you for your concern.
Liquid Vortex trial starts
- Thread starter jimi
- Start date
Fully aware of that. Thank you for your concern.
BobPrell
Well-Known Member
The defense witnesses, if any.
The defendants themselves may elect not to be sworn in and cross-examined.
PeterR
Well-Known Member
Absolutely essential to steering in those conditions!
I assume this part of the charge has been dropped but prosecuting LV for a non-functional compass light is a bit like the police prosecuting drivers for a failed rear light. Whilst I would agree with you on the need for illumination in the compass in normal conditions (although a head torch on a low setting is not a bad substitute). In the conditions LV was experiencing when the wind got up I absolutely disagree that an illuminated compass is essential.
I have once sailed in similar conditions to those LV experienced during the night (approx 40 to 45 knots). We were running and had some main up so it was essential to run more or less square before the waves and avoid getting caught by the lee. It was pitch black and we could not even see the bows of the boat so we could not sail to the wave train in front of us. The most important instrument on board was the wind direction indicator assisted by the feel of the waves coming up behind. My crew who was helming never once looked at the compass. I monitored our track on the plotter at the chart table and I never gave a course to steer until conditions moderated.
No one is claiming LV got lost so per se illumination of the compass can not have been essential, only desirable.
alant
Well-Known Member
Who said it was?
LittleSister
Well-Known Member
I imagine that an illuminated compass is essential to comply with coding requirements for commercial vessels used at night.
I also imagine that the issue is the steps taken (or not) to ensure the vessel was properly compliant and equipped/maintained, rather than whether an piece of required equipment was critical to the events that unfolded.
PeterR
Well-Known Member
I presume your query refers to my supposition that the charge on failing to have an illuminated compass had been dropped. That is my interpretation of the following statment.
"After hearing evidence from the prosecution for more than a week, Judge Ralls considered there was insufficient evidence for Manning, 36, of Pluto Road Eastleigh, to be tried further on two charges relating to standard operating procedures and failing to contact HM Coastguard.
Judge Ralls also asked the jury to do the same for Sturrock, 50, of Much Wenlock, Shropshire, who was found not guilty for safety breaches regarding standard operating procedures and sailing at night without proper equipment.
Both Sturrock and Manning deny the three remaining charges which relate to checking weather forecasts, planning of the voyage and failing to identify and assess risks to the vessel and crew.
The trial continues on three remaining charges."
I assume this means the court can now concentrate on the real issues surrounding the case rather than trying to prove at what point a bulb failed.
alant
Well-Known Member
"I presume your query refers to my supposition that the charge on failing to have an illuminated compass had been dropped. That is my interpretation of the following statment."
No, it was your earlier post, that seemed to suggest that forumites thought an illuminated compass (in those conditions) was an absolutely essential requirement to sail the boat.
"Originally Posted by PeterR
I assume this part of the charge has been dropped but prosecuting LV for a non-functional compass light is a bit like the police prosecuting drivers for a failed rear light. Whilst I would agree with you on the need for illumination in the compass in normal conditions (although a head torch on a low setting is not a bad substitute). In the conditions LV was experiencing when the wind got up I absolutely disagree that an illuminated compass is essential."
As has been said already, that coastline is well lit, plus they would be steering according to wind/sea under those conditions.
Personally, when in any close contact pilotage situation, a compass course is best, but when offshore, the adage 'a star to steer her by', works for me.
NormanS
Well-Known Member
Since when?
reginaldon
Well-Known Member
Well, just what are the charges?
The guy has lost his boat, his reputation and his business.
Just what is the point of it all?
The guy has lost his boat, his reputation and his business.
Just what is the point of it all?
I
I never get the name I wa
Guest
Perhaps next time it could have been someone's life that he lost not just his business.
He has previous.
fireball
Well-Known Member
Not to be reckless in the future?
I think there's a very good point to it all ... on 2 occasions whilst transporting boats to/from the London Boat Show a Hot Liquid vessel has got into difficulties.
Whilst we can accept that accidents do happen, we should expect Sailing Schools and Skippered Charter operations to take considerable care - especially when operating with guests onboard.
It is not unreasonable for an inexperienced sailor to accept the decisions of a sailing school with regards to safety (well, in this country anyway!) and Hot Liquid may have fallen slightly short of the mark with their decisions and therefore (possibly) failed in their duty of car - that's what the Court proceedings should decide.
As to what the point of it is - considering HL has closed it's doors - it will act as a reminder to other companies that they do not operate with impunity and they should be constantly looking at their safety procedures to ensure they are taking the best care possible.
Sailing can be a dangerous sport and if we want to keep the decisions on what/when/where at an individual level then we have to show that we are capable of making the right decisions. If more cases such as this come up then I would not be surprised to see tighter regulation being imposed on sailing schools and charter cos.
A1Sailor
...
If I remember correctly Hot Liquid lost their licence, if that is the correct term, to operate sail training craft in UK waters but not their ability to operate from Gibraltar. I guess it may not have been possible to operate from there only, and to run only shore based courses in UK - but I don't think "the authorities" told them to close down completely.
AntarcticPilot
Well-Known Member
Pour encourager les autres!
As Voltaire said, referring to the execution of Admiral Byng!
awol
Well-Known Member
I see an unfortunate parallel between the skippers of Liquid Vortex and the FP (Film Prop) Bounty. Both managed to advertise an attitude to weather that made them look like complete tits - LV's with tweets, Bounty's with that interview. The RNLI account indicates the loss of LV was much closer than the YM puff piece indicated.
Roll on the trial result and the MAIB report and recommendations ........
Roll on the trial result and the MAIB report and recommendations ........
flawed_logic
Well-Known Member
They lost their RYA accreditation and successfully argued that HL Gibraltar is a separate subsidiary (different safety management etc), which it was, it just used HL as a source of business and was (is?) run by a chap called Clive Dodd. Proved pointless in the end though.
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A1Sailor
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jimi
Well-Known Member
Worth noting the recommendations on the previous MAIB involving the same vessel.
RECOMMENDATIONS
Hot Liquid Sailing Ltd is recommended to:
2011/148 Establish a robust safety management system to ensure:
• The risks to its vessels and crews engaged in commercial operations are identified and thoroughly assessed
• Comprehensive operational procedures and guidance are developed to mitigate such risks
• Management oversight to ensure compliance with its procedures, once these are established.
RECOMMENDATIONS
Hot Liquid Sailing Ltd is recommended to:
2011/148 Establish a robust safety management system to ensure:
• The risks to its vessels and crews engaged in commercial operations are identified and thoroughly assessed
• Comprehensive operational procedures and guidance are developed to mitigate such risks
• Management oversight to ensure compliance with its procedures, once these are established.
Talulah
Well-Known Member
The prosecution have finished their closing speech.
Jason Manning defence has finished their closing speech.
Jason Manning defence has finished their closing speech.
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flawed_logic
Well-Known Member
Well it looks like he's had enough of sailing!
Jason Manning
Search Engine Advertising Consultant at Meadon Marketing
Privately Held; 1-10 employees; Marketing and Advertising industry
Whilst Clive has stayed in the game
Clive Dodd
Director at Jolly Parrot Sailing
Gibraltar Sports
Nice bloke is Clive, would recommend him to anyone.
Jason Manning
Search Engine Advertising Consultant at Meadon Marketing
Privately Held; 1-10 employees; Marketing and Advertising industry
Whilst Clive has stayed in the game
Clive Dodd
Director at Jolly Parrot Sailing
Gibraltar Sports
Nice bloke is Clive, would recommend him to anyone.
A1Sailor
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It's Friday, it's 5 to 5, and it's...