Lifting Rudders

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ifoxwell

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We are giving some thought to what boat to buy next and as we sail on the east coast can see many benefits to getting something with a lifting keel.

I dont have a problem with this but many of them also have a lifting rudder, which for something so critical to the sailing feel and personal security just seems wrong to me.

Am I mad, as after the keel is arguably even more important, or do I have a right to steer clear?

Thoughts please
 
Most high performance dinghies have lifting rudders, and they cope with the feel just fine - and thats before you look at open 60's doing the vendee...

In my experience, vertically lifting rudders are better than pivoting in that they don't creep back and increase weather helm.

I think you may be overthinking it tbh.
 
Having a lifting rudder means that the designer didn't have to compromise by needing a very short span. Thus you would expect a better feel. Also it can be easier to achieve balance with a lifting than a skeg hung rudder.

FWIW a lifting keel is definitely not essential for sailing on the East coast, though we find having a small draft (1.5m) is nice.
 
The Anderson 22 and ISTR the A 26 have very strong vertical lifting rudders - they can be used partly raised when in shallows with the keel up and are very strong, being one piece the feel is excellent - I know what you mean ifoxwell, some lift rudder plates can have a lot of slop destroying the feel - especially when part raised - but I imagine careful packing with big washer plates should take care of most slop.
 
Lifting rudder on the Hunter Delta 25 worked well for us when we had one. Essentially a cassette attached to the tiller in which the rudder blade lifted and raised vertically, when fully down the blade could be tilted forward about 5 degrees allowing the blade to be hydrodynamically balanced. This is very useful and considerably reduces the loads on the tiller. All good dinghy rudders are balanced, i.e. have a portion of the rudder in from of the pivot axis.
Some of the lift keel Beneteau's like the First 27.7 and 25.7 have these transom hung cassette systems.
 
How many of us would admit to running the boat onto a nice beach with keel up but rudder still down and forgotten?
 
Seals and Parkers have lifting rudders. They pivot. In over twenty years, I've never experienced a problem. It's a great arrangement.
Bonus 1 : if you pull up the rudder when you are parked, you don't have to antifoul the blade :)
Bonus 2: pivoting rudders need a downhaul to hold down the rudder while underway. Camcleat make a nice mini jammer that releases under pressure. Your rudder stays down when it should and it automatically releases and pops up if you bump into anything or go aground.
 
ifoxwell said:
We are giving some thought to what boat to buy next and as we sail on the east coast can see many benefits to getting something with a lifting keel.

I dont have a problem with this but many of them also have a lifting rudder, which for something so critical to the sailing feel and personal security just seems wrong to me.

Am I mad, as after the keel is arguably even more important, or do I have a right to steer clear?

Thoughts please
Click to expand...

If you're going for a lifting keel, your choice is either a stumpy little rudder or a lifting rudder.
With modern hull shapes, the stumpy little rudder will be half out of the water and ineffective when heeled. It will probably also be much heavier on the helm.
Many years ago, I sailed lift keel Sonatas, we gave them a lot of abuse. I'd be fairly happy with a vertically lifting rudder like that.
Some sort of sliding pintle affair IIRC.
A pivoting rudder needs to be well made and well adjusted to work well with no slack. There will be a lot of impact on the downhaul if you e.g. hit a big jellyfish at 6 knots. Steering with the rudder knocked back can put a lot of force on the blade.
But a well-made pivoting rudder would not put me off either.
The cassette or 'dagger' rudder is a good option. I've had dinghies with this, the ability to sail off the beach with half the rudder down and small forces on the tiller is nice.

Obviously you need to think about what gives on impact with the ground, the trad pivoting lifting rudder wins here.

Any transom hung rudder can be very irritatingly noisy at anchor. The Impala's rudder used to go 'clonk-clonk' on every wavelet until I re-engineered the pintles.
 
MikeBz said:
Or twin rudders, depending on your budget and the size of boat you are looking for.
Click to expand...

That's true, twin rudders may offer a compromise, but if the keel lifts very far, they may still fall into stumpy or lifting.
I've never sailed a boat with lifting keel and twin, fixed rudders.
 
Thanks everyone

We had a Red Fox for a while with a cassette type rudder, and I don't have the same skepticism about those, Its still a solid blade in a solid stock and ours didn't give us any problems.

But as a dinghy sailor I have long since learnt to appreciate the benefits of a solid rudder over a pivoting one, even if they are a pain when launching and recovering. And that's with well made and maintained stock and blade under what is a comparatively light load.

A poorly designed or adjusted blade on a yacht could be under a lot more pressure.... and then with all the loads going through a single pivot point and two sides of a stock that is joined along just two edges and may have been out in all weathers for years, well its just sounds like a problem waiting to happen.

I'm reassured however by the fact that some of you at least have had no problems and are not put off by them.

Thanks
Ian
 
I have had a swing rudder on my 21ft TS for 40 years no real problems. It pivots in an ali frame. I do lock the vertical drop keel down so there is not the risk (I hope) of loads on the shallower rudder behind the keel. Hence I fit another bolt through the back of the ali frame to clamp the cheeks together to minimise slop. Hence the whole thing is in effect a solid transom mounted rudder until I remove the clamp bolt.
Now long ago I had a little catamaran of home built and design with fixed transom mounted rudders. Once when beaching it one rudder hit something and it ripped the pintles off the transom leaving a large hole which quickly sunk the hull so yes i have some reservations and have reinforced the transom around the pintles.
Anyway I would not have any concerns re a lifting or swing rudder. As said a swing rudder must be right down if not tiller forces are huge. But when right down it can be easy to get that rudder balance that is so good. Or in my case increase rudder depth to give more control when heeled with a shy spinnacker. Just as a matter of interest my type of boat still in production is mostly sold with dropping rudder due to ability to be used in shallow water. ol'will
 
For what it's worth, I've had all three variations over the years. A Jaguar 21 with a vertical lift keel in a cassette, a Parker 27, with a swinging lift keel and my current boat with twin stubby rudders.
My clear preference is the Parker swinging rudder which was mounted a Sturdy SS stock, and designed to be semi balanced. It gave a good deep rudder with plenty of control authority, and the semi balanced design reduced the workload of the autopilot.
 
I used to have a lift keel boat. That had a pivoting lifting rudder hung on pintels on the transom.

Because the entire rudder was wooden, and I didn't want to keep re varnishing it, I used to pull out the R clip and lift the whole rudder off and store it dry in the cabin when in the harbour.
 
Thanks for all the comments guys, you are putting my mind at rest.

Final question on the subject. Given that I would be buying a shallow draft boat because I want to use it in shallow water what are your thoughts on manoeuvring with the blade up. On a dinghy the loads go up tremendously and you risk damaging the stock, I assume the same applies in this case?

That said leaving it down and risking a grounding sounds bad as well? Thoughts please
 
I would think it was fairly easy to make a pivoting stock strong enough that you wouldn't be able to break it via the tiller.
But you might struggle to steer if the sails are not balanced.
This is a big plus for the cassette/dagger rudder or the vertical sliding pintles.

OTOH, it's the price you pay for a rudder that will laugh off hitting the bottom at 5 knots.

I sail a dinghy off a beach with a lifting rudder. So long as it's a quality rudder and stock, and you don't use both arms to heave on the tiller, it doesn't seem to break. Mostly you steer by heeling the boat and sheeting main vs jib. That works, provided you have a crew who is on-task.
Raising the centreboard most of the way loses the weather helm, so the base load is removed from the rudder. So long as you can avoid heavy steering while the plate and rudder are up, all is fine.

A cassette rudder looks like an elegant answer, but unless the blade is raked forwards, you can't have any balance on the rudder, that is just unpleasant with a typical modern yacht hull IMHO. (maybe the cassette could be vertical and the pintles raked?)

Basically, when the keel is up, if you want big steering, you must use the sails.
 
Perhaps one should ask the question-what shallow water am I going to sail in, how often and how deep?
perhaps one might also realise that once you have been up one muddy creek you have been up them all and it is not what one thinks it is in one's dreams. Get a boat with a proper keel and enjoy proper sailing. You will have far greater fun in the long term
 
Daydream believer said:
Perhaps one should ask the question-what shallow water am I going to sail in, how often and how deep?
perhaps one might also realise that once you have been up one muddy creek you have been up them all and it is not what one thinks it is in one's dreams. Get a boat with a proper keel and enjoy proper sailing. You will have far greater fun in the long term
Click to expand...
The first sensible answer to date
 
Daydream believer said:
Perhaps one should ask the question-what shallow water am I going to sail in, how often and how deep?
perhaps one might also realise that once you have been up one muddy creek you have been up them all and it is not what one thinks it is in one's dreams. Get a boat with a proper keel and enjoy proper sailing. You will have far greater fun in the long term
Click to expand...

You have to look at the whole package.
I have a mate who can get a cheap mooring within 10 minute pushbike ride from his house. Shallow draft would mean he's got access 18 hours a day instead of 8.
I tend to agree regarding destinations, there are enough places to go where 2m draught won't stop you. And I do like a boat that goes to windward properly.
 
Okay, you will NOT be sailing with the rudder up. That implies the water is so shallow the keel would be up as well. And like that you would have trouble sailing and make a huge amount of leeway.

With keel and rudder up you will only be motoring and even then leeway will be an issue until you can get the keel down, at least a bit.

Our boat had an offset transom mounted OB. When the rudder was up it was possible to turn the tilted rudder so it hit the OB prop. One had to be VERY careful (vector the OB at the same time as turning the rudder)
 
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