Lifting Rudders

[Ian_Edwards]

All three boats I've had with lifting keels have gone to windward very well for there waterline length. The only cruiser I've had with a fix keel was a shallow draft Dufour 40, which didn't go to windward very well. I sailed out of an east coast drying harbour, and the only time the rudders were raised was to enter leave the harbor, with just enough water to float the boat. The Parkers rudder almost up, was very heavy, but it was only used at low speed get through the harbour entrance.
The Jaguar's lifting rudder was a pain, you could only use it at set depths, governed by the position of the holes in the rudder through which a pin was inserted.
The Southerly's rudders are great in shallow water, but lack control authority when reaching in a good breeze and a quartering sea. I need to reef the main quite early.

 

[lw395]

Okay, you will NOT be sailing with the rudder up. That implies the water is so shallow the keel would be up as well. And like that you would have trouble sailing and make a huge amount of leeway.

With keel and rudder up you will only be motoring and even then leeway will be an issue until you can get the keel down, at least a bit.

Our boat had an offset transom mounted OB. When the rudder was up it was possible to turn the tilted rudder so it hit the OB prop. One had to be VERY careful (vector the OB at the same time as turning the rudder)

Disagree.
When I sailed Sonata lift keelers, we had no engine, sailed in 2ft or so of water.
Horses for courses.
There is a whole spectrum of lift keel/lift rudder boats, and a whole spectrum of what people are trying to do with them.
Some boats are sailable with the keel 'up' some only with the keel 'partly up'.
There are multihulls which float on a heavy dew with the boards up, there are lift keel boats that draw a whole metre with everything up.
Dangerous to generalise too much?

 

[Seajet]

Yes, my Anderson still has the considerable sized ( about 1' deep x 3' long, 900lb cast iron ) ballast bulb below the hull when the keel is up, so sails quite well like that with the rudder half up - it doesn't increase load like a swing plate rudder does, quite the opposite and requires much coarser tiller movements.

It's true though that 90% of the times I have keel up and rudder part up I'd be motoring chancing my luck with not much water at my mud mooring - she draws 2' keel up.

 

[langstonelayabout]

I've never sailed a boat with lifting keel and twin, fixed rudders.

I have; a chartered Sun Odyssey 36. Nice boat.

It did everything a cruising boat needs to do as well as it needed to do it. I'd be happy to sail one again.

The only downside seemed to be the need for extra speed over the rudder blades when reversing into the marina berth. With shorter rudder blades and a central propeller the only water flow across the blades comes from boat speed rather than water being sucked across the rudder blades.

 

[Seajet]

And the rudders are vulnerable to flotsam or accidental grounding, as they're not masked behind a keel - probably not even a skeg ?

The idea of regularly drying on splayed twin rudders gives me the heebie geebies, salesmen of such boats had better not hold their breaths awaiting my custom - as the saying goes ' whatever floats ones boat'.

I'm afraid twin rudders are just all wrong to me unless on an exotic Volvo racer type - often an excuse for a lardarse design to squeeze in more and more aft cabins.

 

[Daydream believer]

Disagree.
?

But Prodave was right to make the point so that the OP can consider that BEFORE signing the cheque, not after when it is too late. Bit like my comment about why he really needs one in the first place.

 

[Daydream believer]

I'm afraid twin rudders are just all wrong to me unless on an exotic Volvo racer type - often an excuse for a lardarse design to squeeze in more and more aft cabins.

Why do you keep referring to boats with wider sterns as "lardarse " designs and such a derogatory manner? The development of such yachts has great advantages & if I could afford a new yacht, at my time of life, a twin wheeled wider sterned yacht would certainly not be excluded from the list. & before you say it---I would also make the point that I do not sit in marinas like ( as Brent Swain puts it so eloquently) a "marina queen" never going anywhere, either.

 

[Daydream believer]

You have to look at the whole package.
I have a mate who can get a cheap mooring within 10 minute pushbike ride from his house. Shallow draft would mean he's got access 18 hours a day instead of 8.
I tend to agree regarding destinations, there are enough places to go where 2m draught won't stop you. And I do like a boat that goes to windward properly.

Takes me 25 mins on a bike to Bradwell marina & I cannot get in or out at a couple of hours, or so, either side of low tide. But it is quite simple to organise oneself & because the boat will actually GO places I tend to do so. Hence, I am not stuck waiting to get in and out all the time. As you say there are plenty of interesting places where my 1.800 draft has no problems that I still have to visit.
Another point is that, whereas a friend of mine with a bilge keeler will go to Harwich for a day sail; I can go to Lowestoft, if the wind plays ball.
However, he can crawl into Walton Backwaters, whilst I have to wait another hour or two. But I can get there quicker, so can often catch the tide anyway. Not that one wants to go there more than once in a lifetime.

 

[lw395]

Sailing is a broad church, different people want different things from their boats.
I have a lot of respect for people with modest low budget boats that get out and enjoy sailing.
If shoal draft boats make that more attainable for some people, it's good in my book.

 

[ifoxwell]

Thanks for all the responses guys, a lot of good points.
I had over looked the fact that when the rudder is up, then the keel is almost certainly up as well so the loads that might be applied to it come down a lot.
As for get a boat with a keel... I can relate to this. All my boat purchases thus far have had sailing performance as a major consideration its just that at the moment, other factors are more important.
Ian

 

[langstonelayabout]

Lift keel and lift rudder. Makes complete sense to me. My E-Boat had both, both lifting vertically and the boat sailing and manoevring very well, just like a good dinghy.

The rudder blade lifted vertically through an alloy cassette that was tight on the blade. When lowered it then pushed forward about 30mm for balance and a wooden wedge at the back of the blade held it tight in that position.

It worked well and with no slop. And I was always a dinghy racer who swore to never have a lifting rudder (they are straight from the devil's armpit)

My cousin's Super Seal is a lovely boat to sail too, but his rudder blade pivots. After a couple of hours it pivots back just enough to make the tiller a bit heavy. If it were my boat I'd put a retaining pin through the cheeks of the stock and blade to ensure it stays vertical but it isn't, so we occasionally check the downhaul rope is tight...