Vagabond
Well-Known Member
How about Tony B. He survived well inside the boat.
Does the boat not have better shelter than a liferaft?
Does the boat not have better shelter than a liferaft?
Liferaft or use the dinghy?
- Thread starter Vagabond
- Start date
Sans Bateau
Well-Known Member
I know nothing of the Baracuda. The Sadler 26, 29 and 34 I understand had enough foam for positive buoyancy.
All Etaps pre production are test sailed flooded. A couple of years ago an Etap 21 was sailed from Calais to Dover with all the skin fittings removed, flooded. There was an article in Yachting monthly several years ago featuring the buoyancy of Etaps. The article featured an Etap 38i that had hit a reef in the Red Sea, taking out its saildrive and hence flooding it, the article showed the boat afloat and stable.
Its strange that people are suspicious of the credentials of these boats but put all their faith in a plastic box on the roof of the boat that they do not know will work until the day of reckoning arrives! Phew.
All Etaps pre production are test sailed flooded. A couple of years ago an Etap 21 was sailed from Calais to Dover with all the skin fittings removed, flooded. There was an article in Yachting monthly several years ago featuring the buoyancy of Etaps. The article featured an Etap 38i that had hit a reef in the Red Sea, taking out its saildrive and hence flooding it, the article showed the boat afloat and stable.
Its strange that people are suspicious of the credentials of these boats but put all their faith in a plastic box on the roof of the boat that they do not know will work until the day of reckoning arrives! Phew.
Vagabond
Well-Known Member
Friend of mine has a 34 or 35. Very nice boat. If I wasn't mad on mulits the Etap is a boat I'd go for.
tome
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Its strange that people are suspicious of the credentials of these boats
[/ QUOTE ]
They are very good boats IMO - whether or not unsinkable. Problem I see is that a boat which is flooded to above the bunks provides no internal shelter
Tony B owes his good fortunes to a ver good survival suit
Its strange that people are suspicious of the credentials of these boats
[/ QUOTE ]
They are very good boats IMO - whether or not unsinkable. Problem I see is that a boat which is flooded to above the bunks provides no internal shelter
Tony B owes his good fortunes to a ver good survival suit
Woodlouse
Well-Known Member
Unsinkable is a very strong word. I would never even consider using a rubber dinghy instead of a liferaft. It's bad enough being in a rubber boat in a wet and windy marina, you wouldn't last a day in one out at sea in anything but calm weather. What people here seem to be forgetting is not just the fact that liferafts are far more sea worthy than rubber dinghys, but also the fact that liferafts are prepacked with food, water, basic first aid kit and other life saving equipment.
How well do Etaps float upside down? Even if I had an "unsinkable" boat I would still have a liferaft unless I knew for certain I was never going to be more than three miles off shore.
Also, how do you suppose the statistics are for liferaft failiures compared to successful deployments? I'll bet that for a well cared for, serviced liferaft the failiure rate is under 1%. Odds that I'm perfectly happy to accept.
How well do Etaps float upside down? Even if I had an "unsinkable" boat I would still have a liferaft unless I knew for certain I was never going to be more than three miles off shore.
Also, how do you suppose the statistics are for liferaft failiures compared to successful deployments? I'll bet that for a well cared for, serviced liferaft the failiure rate is under 1%. Odds that I'm perfectly happy to accept.
KevB
Well-Known Member
Clive,
For the sake of £600 it has to be worth getting one 'just in case'?
Christmas pressie from Debs maybe.
Besides, I'm led to believe that on certain parts of your journey you will have some VIP's on board so best make it a 6 person life raft.
For the sake of £600 it has to be worth getting one 'just in case'?
Christmas pressie from Debs maybe.
Besides, I'm led to believe that on certain parts of your journey you will have some VIP's on board so best make it a 6 person life raft.
Vagabond
Well-Known Member
Kev,
With the VIP's we'l be 8!
Have to let the girls go down with the boat eh....
With the VIP's we'l be 8!
Have to let the girls go down with the boat eh....
Sans Bateau
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Problem I see is that a boat which is flooded to above the bunks provides no internal shelter
[/ QUOTE ]
But how dry is the inside of a life raft?
I should also make it clear that when I am able to extend my cruising ground beyond the Channel and South Coast, maybe crossing to Cork etc, then I would carry a life raft, because of the fire issue, the one danger I am very conscious of.
There is no reason to believe that if we were holed crossing the channel that we would spend any more time waiting for rescue than we would if we were in a raft.
If we were to be holed, the boat floats, others would sink, there would be no option.
Problem I see is that a boat which is flooded to above the bunks provides no internal shelter
[/ QUOTE ]
But how dry is the inside of a life raft?
I should also make it clear that when I am able to extend my cruising ground beyond the Channel and South Coast, maybe crossing to Cork etc, then I would carry a life raft, because of the fire issue, the one danger I am very conscious of.
There is no reason to believe that if we were holed crossing the channel that we would spend any more time waiting for rescue than we would if we were in a raft.
If we were to be holed, the boat floats, others would sink, there would be no option.
KevB
Well-Known Member
8?
Vagabond
Well-Known Member
Ah ... no sorry 6 .... ! never was much good at 2 * table.
tome
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
But how dry is the inside of a life raft?
[/ QUOTE ]
As dry as you can keep it using a bailer and sponge. And if you want to survive, you'd better keep it dry. Worth doing a survival course where they cover all this stuff
There's a horrific video (RN use it I think) kicking about which shows 2 liferafts full of men. One of them keeps their raft nice and dry and everyone survives. As dawn breaks and the seas drop a bit they spot the other raft and paddle over to find them all gonners - raft full of water (but less than you'd have in the Etap!)
But how dry is the inside of a life raft?
[/ QUOTE ]
As dry as you can keep it using a bailer and sponge. And if you want to survive, you'd better keep it dry. Worth doing a survival course where they cover all this stuff
There's a horrific video (RN use it I think) kicking about which shows 2 liferafts full of men. One of them keeps their raft nice and dry and everyone survives. As dawn breaks and the seas drop a bit they spot the other raft and paddle over to find them all gonners - raft full of water (but less than you'd have in the Etap!)
Vagabond
Well-Known Member
Now I think that also has something to do with survival instinct of the people involved.
flipper
Well-Known Member
I for one would have no hesitation approaching a life raft to pick up the unfortunate crew if asked to assist, but there is no way I would take a boat alongside a semi-submerged boat with all the associated rigging hanging there waiting to foul my boat/exacerbate the situation. Now you have the problem of recovering a MOB too!
Sailfree
Well-Known Member
I think owning an etab put a liferaft lower down the priority list but I hope you don't ever catch fire!
vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
Flooded above the bunks
Sadler 34 holed in the channel. Just about afloat, I don't fancy his chances in any swell. The smaller Sadlers are reputed to have a better buoyancy/weight ratio and float better. I heard of one that was sailed with all seacocks (deliberately) open as a demonstration.
Sadler 34 holed in the channel. Just about afloat, I don't fancy his chances in any swell. The smaller Sadlers are reputed to have a better buoyancy/weight ratio and float better. I heard of one that was sailed with all seacocks (deliberately) open as a demonstration.
Woodlouse
Well-Known Member
Re: Flooded above the bunks
See if my boat looked like that then I would want to have a liferaft inflated and alongside ready for of anything happened.
What did he hit to cause damage like that?
See if my boat looked like that then I would want to have a liferaft inflated and alongside ready for of anything happened.
What did he hit to cause damage like that?
tome
Well-Known Member
Very good point
TheBoatman
Well-Known Member
That's how Ronnie Cannon (cox'n Ramsgate LB) earn one of his silver medals by backing down onto the yacht Rasmus, dis-masted and aground on the Goodwins it was the only way to approach without getting all tied up - as the say.
Peter.
Peter.
TheBoatman
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
....and those with a boat that relies on a liferaft, will their crew stay put? "It'll be OK the liferaft will save us".
[/ QUOTE ]
I certainly wouldn't, I'd be over the side quick as a flash - then wait for the hydrostatic charges to go off on the L/raft.
[ QUOTE ]
....and if you have time to deploy the liferaft, you have time to get out of the way.
[/ QUOTE ]
Please see my reply above!
I tell you what - I bet I can deploy my L/raft quicker than you can un-lash your dinghy and get it floating? AND that would be in any sea/weather conditions.
Because of the tickets I hold I had to do the sea survival course - OK 20 years ago now - but I seriously advise you to go and take one, not only will it open your eyes but you'll enjoy it too!!!!
IMHO everyone that takes a boat to sea should go and "do" the course, especially those people that like to sail during the winter because without any real protection against the coldness of the sea, survival times are measured in minutes not hours.
Here on the Medway one of our local clubs runs a dinghy event called the Hoo Freezer (next year it's in Feb). The rules state that the crews must wear a minimum of a full wet suit and if possible a dry suit, BUT, us rescue bods are still instructed to take crews off capsized dinghies after 5 minutes and return them to a hospital ship for attention (hypothermia). A lot of people think that hypothermia is only some thing that occurs in winter - wrong - it can affect anyone in the water for long periods even in August.
If you get dunked into the sea (even in May) and you are exposed to the wind in a dinghy your survival time before hypothermia sets in would be less than 1 hour, but if you could get out of the wind then that time extends by at least a factor of 2.
What I find difficult to understand about your argument is that you have identified fire/explosion as your biggest risk to life, limb and the boat and you have taken steps to minimise that. BUT when it comes to the possibility/scenario of you having to abandon the boat, you quote things like the "L/raft might not inflate" "the mast may render the L/raft unusable" but you quote no evidence as to why it wouldn't inflate or that the same dis-masting may have rendered the dinghy useless as well - you seem to place a lot of envisys on the fire part and are willing to go to any lengths/costs to minimise the risk but seem not to want to admit that "if" you had to abandon ship the best thing to use would be a L/raft /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Peter.
....and those with a boat that relies on a liferaft, will their crew stay put? "It'll be OK the liferaft will save us".
[/ QUOTE ]
I certainly wouldn't, I'd be over the side quick as a flash - then wait for the hydrostatic charges to go off on the L/raft.
[ QUOTE ]
....and if you have time to deploy the liferaft, you have time to get out of the way.
[/ QUOTE ]
Please see my reply above!
I tell you what - I bet I can deploy my L/raft quicker than you can un-lash your dinghy and get it floating? AND that would be in any sea/weather conditions.
Because of the tickets I hold I had to do the sea survival course - OK 20 years ago now - but I seriously advise you to go and take one, not only will it open your eyes but you'll enjoy it too!!!!
IMHO everyone that takes a boat to sea should go and "do" the course, especially those people that like to sail during the winter because without any real protection against the coldness of the sea, survival times are measured in minutes not hours.
Here on the Medway one of our local clubs runs a dinghy event called the Hoo Freezer (next year it's in Feb). The rules state that the crews must wear a minimum of a full wet suit and if possible a dry suit, BUT, us rescue bods are still instructed to take crews off capsized dinghies after 5 minutes and return them to a hospital ship for attention (hypothermia). A lot of people think that hypothermia is only some thing that occurs in winter - wrong - it can affect anyone in the water for long periods even in August.
If you get dunked into the sea (even in May) and you are exposed to the wind in a dinghy your survival time before hypothermia sets in would be less than 1 hour, but if you could get out of the wind then that time extends by at least a factor of 2.
What I find difficult to understand about your argument is that you have identified fire/explosion as your biggest risk to life, limb and the boat and you have taken steps to minimise that. BUT when it comes to the possibility/scenario of you having to abandon the boat, you quote things like the "L/raft might not inflate" "the mast may render the L/raft unusable" but you quote no evidence as to why it wouldn't inflate or that the same dis-masting may have rendered the dinghy useless as well - you seem to place a lot of envisys on the fire part and are willing to go to any lengths/costs to minimise the risk but seem not to want to admit that "if" you had to abandon ship the best thing to use would be a L/raft /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Peter.
vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
Re: Flooded above the bunks
"On July 24th at 0120 hours the Dorothy Hackforth, a Sadler 34, was in collision with a 1300 ton Danish gas tanker 14 miles from Brixham. The sail training yacht, launched by former Poole Mayor Dorothy Hackforth, was on passage to Alderney with a crew of seven. Although ripped open and dismasted she remained afloat, and fortunately there was no loss of life. The crew were taken off by the tanker, Lisbet Kosan, and then transferred to the Torbay lifeboat. Although afloat, she would have made a poor liferaft.
Afterwards the Dorothy Hackforth was spotted floating 18 miles off Portland Bill and towed into Weymouth Harbour. Ashore, the full extent of the damage can be seen. Without the foam buoyancy she would have sunk in seconds. "
Don't know the year, I guess 1986. Although not exactly an alternative for a liferaft it is good to know that the boat remained at least partially afloat. Gives a lot of options for recovery of essential equipment if necessary.
"On July 24th at 0120 hours the Dorothy Hackforth, a Sadler 34, was in collision with a 1300 ton Danish gas tanker 14 miles from Brixham. The sail training yacht, launched by former Poole Mayor Dorothy Hackforth, was on passage to Alderney with a crew of seven. Although ripped open and dismasted she remained afloat, and fortunately there was no loss of life. The crew were taken off by the tanker, Lisbet Kosan, and then transferred to the Torbay lifeboat. Although afloat, she would have made a poor liferaft.
Afterwards the Dorothy Hackforth was spotted floating 18 miles off Portland Bill and towed into Weymouth Harbour. Ashore, the full extent of the damage can be seen. Without the foam buoyancy she would have sunk in seconds. "
Don't know the year, I guess 1986. Although not exactly an alternative for a liferaft it is good to know that the boat remained at least partially afloat. Gives a lot of options for recovery of essential equipment if necessary.
