Liferaft or Rhib - What would you choose?

[steveeasy]

A life raft is the last resort, a means to evacuate a boat as a very last resort. but can’t see any reason not to have one on board if you sail offshore. A rib?, well it may well not be as stable even if you can launch it or board it. They do completely different roles.
Steveeasy

 

[PaulRainbow]

Liferaft.

If you hit a part sunk shipping container or suffer fuel or gas explosion, you wont have time to launch a RIB let alone get to where its stored. A Liferaft on the stern rail ( never ever on foredeck or coachroof) can be launch literally as you leave cockpit, or even as yacht sinks away beneath you. 4 or 5 hours in an open RIB will see you dead if clothes are damp and its anything but high summer and flat calm

My tender is stored at the very aft end of the boat, on davits. The engine is fixed in place and the fuel tank is full. The davit winches each have a ratchet lever, when pressed the winches just let go. If there was any issue at in launching, just cut the dyneema winch lines with he very sharp bread knife that's in a sheath, at the transom where one would exit the boat. Once launched, descend to the bathing platform and step into the tender.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Don't make things up - I never said any of that. You clearly have not read what I wrote.

Yes, people get into difficulties, but only a very tiny number in our coastal waters result in foundering. Just check the MAIB reports over the last 30 years and see how many you can find. It is not what I "personally" hear but the result of researching the sources where such incidents are reported.

There would of course be far more if people did not carry the various devices for calling for help, have seaworthy boats, pay attention to weather and plan accordingly and keep away from hard bits of land and other ships. The ability to do all this ahs improved enormously over the last 30 years, hence the dramatic fall in the number of founderings of small pleasure craft.

I have never used the VHF in anger, never called a Mayday, DSC or otherwise. Never fallen overboard, or had anyone else do so on one of my boats. Never used a flare on a boat. Never used an EPIRB or PLB. Never had a mechanical failure that's stopped me getting back to port (one partially blocked diesel filter, total mechanical issue, ever).

So why should i bother to carry anything ?

Because any of the above could happen and no matter how unlikely, i like to be prepared. I'll stick to keeping the tender on the davits, fuelled and ready to launch, just in case the unthinkable happens.

A very quick look on Google, for my area:

• Dunwich (2013): A 10-meter fishing boat, the Southern Star, sank after springing a leak, with three fishermen rescued by Aldeburgh and Southwold lifeboats after launching a life raft.
• Lowestoft (2012): A dive boat rapidly sank less than a mile offshore, requiring the rescue of 11 people by Lowestoft Lifeboat, one diver escaping through a window as water flooded in.
• Broads (2023): A search was conducted for a man missing after a boat sank on the River Waveney, with four people rescued initially, but a body was later found
• Near Felixstowe (2014): A sailor went missing after a yacht collided with a dredger.
• Fire: A catamaran, the ECC Topaz, caught fire and sank off Lowestoft in 2014, requiring a crew rescue from a life raft.

Etc...

 

[Tranona]

I have never used the VHF in anger, never called a Mayday, DSC or otherwise. Never fallen overboard, or had anyone else do so on one of my boats. Never used a flare on a boat. Never used an EPIRB or PLB. Never had a mechanical failure that's stopped me getting back to port (one partially blocked diesel filter, total mechanical issue, ever).

So why should i bother to carry anything ?

Because any of the above could happen and no matter how unlikely, i like to be prepared. I'll stick to keeping the tender on the davits, fuelled and ready to launch, just in case the unthinkable happens.

A very quick look on Google, for my area:

• Dunwich (2013): A 10-meter fishing boat, the Southern Star, sank after springing a leak, with three fishermen rescued by Aldeburgh and Southwold lifeboats after launching a life raft.
• Lowestoft (2012): A dive boat rapidly sank less than a mile offshore, requiring the rescue of 11 people by Lowestoft Lifeboat, one diver escaping through a window as water flooded in.
• Broads (2023): A search was conducted for a man missing after a boat sank on the River Waveney, with four people rescued initially, but a body was later found
• Near Felixstowe (2014): A sailor went missing after a yacht collided with a dredger.
• Fire: A catamaran, the ECC Topaz, caught fire and sank off Lowestoft in 2014, requiring a crew rescue from a life raft.

Etc...

So, you found 5 examples , 4 of them over 10 years ago, only one or maybe 2 pleasure sailing boats. Does your "etc" include any more recent confirmed cases? Thank you for demonstrating the point I have been making - founderings of small pleasure craft in UK waters is extremely rare - let alone boats like the OPs - mum, dad and 2 children in a substantial well found yacht. Not likely to happen to you either because none of the examples were anything like your situation.

One needs to keep a sense of proportion and be guided by the facts as far as they can be established, not by lurid imaginations.

 

[aerobat]

I seem to be the only one here but i would , especially with kids ,

-make the distress call
-enter the life raft
-wait for help
-take some good shots of the best scotch i can get when ashore
-call the insurance

Not sure if a 3.5m rib with 4 persons is a good idea in 5-6bft and steep short waves when i have a sheltered liferaft available , especially if we are talking winter months .

 

[RunAgroundHard]

I seem to be the only one here but i would , especially with kids ,

-make the distress call
-enter the life raft
-wait for help
-take some good shots of the best scotch i can get when ashore
-call the insurance

Not sure if a 3.5m rib with 4 persons is a good idea in 5-6bft and steep short waves when i have a sheltered liferaft available , especially if we are talking winter months .

… but you could be sinking because of a small meteors showering down, then a RIB would be better to dodge them as you headed ashore.

 

[NormanS]

It could be a matter of outlook of life in general. Some of us like to play an active part in securing our outcomes. Others prefer to call for help and await rescue.

 

[PaulRainbow]

So, you found 5 examples , 4 of them over 10 years ago,

You said "check the MAIB reports over the last 30 years"

I only did a local Google search.

only one or maybe 2 pleasure sailing boats. Does your "etc" include any more recent confirmed cases? Thank you for demonstrating the point I have been making - founderings of small pleasure craft in UK waters is extremely rare - let alone boats like the OPs - mum, dad and 2 children in a substantial well found yacht. Not likely to happen to you either because none of the examples were anything like your situation.

One needs to keep a sense of proportion and be guided by the facts as far as they can be established, not by lurid imaginations.

One needs to stop projecting ones own preferences onto everyone else. Something you seem to do a lot.

 

[PaulRainbow]

So, you found 5 examples , 4 of them over 10 years ago, only one or maybe 2 pleasure sailing boats. Does your "etc" include any more recent confirmed cases? Thank you for demonstrating the point I have been making - founderings of small pleasure craft in UK waters is extremely rare - let alone boats like the OPs - mum, dad and 2 children in a substantial well found yacht. Not likely to happen to you either because none of the examples were anything like your situation.

One needs to keep a sense of proportion and be guided by the facts as far as they can be established, not by lurid imaginations.

A few months ago, just around the corner from me:

Four people escape 'almost certain death' as yacht sinks

 

[billskip]

One needs to stop projecting ones own preferences onto everyone else. Something you seem to do a lot.

I'm lost for words....

 

[seeSimon]

Our four man Seago liferaft isn’t something that can be “chucked”. It takes two men to lift it onto the pushpit harness and I wouldn't drop it into a RIB in calm conditions let alone a F6 sea state. Doing so would damage one or both of the raft and rib.

My seago 4 man arrived back from service today...the young courier chap delivering it, having carried it 10 yards said "that's small and unusually heavy, what the bleddy ell is in that?" 32kg in valise.

I don't have a pushpit...

 

[PaulRainbow]

I'm lost for words....

Not like you

 

[lustyd]

My seago 4 man arrived back from service today...the young courier chap delivering it, having carried it 10 yards said "that's small and unusually heavy, what the bleddy ell is in that?" 32kg.

I don't have a pushpit...

Ah I was quoting the “plus” canister version. Our 4 man is 40KG
I tried to lift it on myself for about 3 seconds and then asked for help even less helpful when it’s sat in the Seago reusable crate! All very reassuring that it’s well made though

 

[MikeBz]

The Titanic didn’t bother with enough lifeboats for its entire occupants because it was unthinkable that it would sink!

Thread drift I know, but having visited the Titanic Immersive (no really) Experience in London recently (highly recommended) I now know that “unsinkability” wasn’t the main reason for the inadequacy of lifeboat numbers. She complied with the regulations of the time, and back then the possibility of having to evacuate all aboard a ship in one go was not considered - the lifeboats were to be used to shuttle back and forth between a crippled craft and a rescuing craft.

 

[Tranona]

You said "check the MAIB reports over the last 30 years"

I only did a local Google search.

One needs to stop projecting ones own preferences onto everyone else. Something you seem to do a lot.

A few months ago, just around the corner from me:

Four people escape 'almost certain death' as yacht sinks

Yes - once again demonstrates what I say - a rare event and if you look at it closely the lifeboat asked them to reboard the yacht before rescue. Once again this example is very far from the scenario posed by the OP as well as the sort of situation you might encounter. This is not mum and dad and 2.4 on their summer cruise but a crew of 4 people out in extreme weather getting lost and hitting a sandbank. They were fortunate that they were able to attract attention and get rescued.

On the other hand can you find an example of a Princess like yours or similar type catching fire or getting holed at sea and sinking? I can think of 2 in the last 20 years or so, and in each case they were exceptional circumstances far removed from what might be considered "normal" use.

I come from a background that values solid evidence and rational thought. I am not reflecting my thoughts but rather an analysis of actual incidents reported in depth mainly from official reports from the MAIB and equivalents in Ireland, Australia and New Zealand. My observations in post #28 are a fair summary of the findings of over 40 reports that I have read. You only did a Google search

Nowhere have I said you should not carry devices for attracting attention, keeping you afloat if you have to enter the water, or a liferaft as a last resort. After I did the liferaft training course in Stonehaven now 45 years ago, I decided I would do anything I could to avoid ever having to resort to using one. If you read survivors' reports of actual use (if the raft does inflate - not always the case, read the reports) - you would come to the same conclusion.

On the other hand I can think of 3 incidents when the liferaft was deployed and worked exactly as it should - but each was a unique and unusual circumstance. One in involved a large Moody cut in half after a collision with a container ship in the English channel in foggy but benign conditions. It stayed afloat long enough for the crew to enter the raft. Second was the sinking of a Hanse 37 in the Irish Sea after the rudder was lost and water entered the boat which then sank. The liferaft was used to transfer the crew to another yacht standing by. The third was also in the Irish Sea that involved a very unseaworthy old wooden fishing boat on a delivery trip. It did indeed catch fire and the crew eventually abandoned it still floating but were not found for some time because they had no means of communication. You can also find many accounts of foundering and use of liferafts in the Fishing Boat reports from the MAIB. Not much to learn from them that is directly relevant to our type of boating except to reinforce the point that liferafts really are last chance saloon with uncertain outcomes.

 

[Sea Change]

Yes - once again demonstrates what I say - a rare event and if you look at it closely the lifeboat asked them to reboard the yacht before rescue. Once again this example is very far from the scenario posed by the OP as well as the sort of situation you might encounter. This is not mum and dad and 2.4 on their summer cruise but a crew of 4 people out in extreme weather getting lost and hitting a sandbank. They were fortunate that they were able to attract attention and get rescued.

On the other hand can you find an example of a Princess like yours or similar type catching fire or getting holed at sea and sinking? I can think of 2 in the last 20 years or so, and in each case they were exceptional circumstances far removed from what might be considered "normal" use.

I come from a background that values solid evidence and rational thought. I am not reflecting my thoughts but rather an analysis of actual incidents reported in depth mainly from official reports from the MAIB and equivalents in Ireland, Australia and New Zealand. My observations in post #28 are a fair summary of the findings of over 40 reports that I have read. You only did a Google search

Nowhere have I said you should not carry devices for attracting attention, keeping you afloat if you have to enter the water, or a liferaft as a last resort. After I did the liferaft training course in Stonehaven now 45 years ago, I decided I would do anything I could to avoid ever having to resort to using one. If you read survivors' reports of actual use (if the raft does inflate - not always the case, read the reports) - you would come to the same conclusion.

On the other hand I can think of 3 incidents when the liferaft was deployed and worked exactly as it should - but each was a unique and unusual circumstance. One in involved a large Moody cut in half after a collision with a container ship in the English channel in foggy but benign conditions. It stayed afloat long enough for the crew to enter the raft. Second was the sinking of a Hanse 37 in the Irish Sea after the rudder was lost and water entered the boat which then sank. The liferaft was used to transfer the crew to another yacht standing by. The third was also in the Irish Sea that involved a very unseaworthy old wooden fishing boat on a delivery trip. It did indeed catch fire and the crew eventually abandoned it still floating but were not found for some time because they had no means of communication. You can also find many accounts of foundering and use of liferafts in the Fishing Boat reports from the MAIB. Not much to learn from them that is directly relevant to our type of boating except to reinforce the point that liferafts really are last chance saloon with uncertain outcomes.

Was that yacht by any chance the Giuliana? She sank near the start of her Biscay crossing just a few days before we set off on the same route.
It was rather sobering. We were in Kilmore Quay getting ready for what would be our first proper multi day offshore passage, so we were fairly apprehensive. We were berthed right next to the lifeboat, which headed out to pick them up.
It certainly didn't do much to calm my parents' nerves. I was glad to have a liferaft onboard.

Edit: nope, looks like the Giuliana is a different one, a Grand Soleil 46 rather than a Hanse 37.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

My seago 4 man arrived back from service today...the young courier chap delivering it, having carried it 10 yards said "that's small and unusually heavy, what the bleddy ell is in that?" 32kg in valise.

I don't have a pushpit...

Well if you think you can readily lift a 32kg object over the guard rails from cockpit or foredeck from a storm tossed boat or from one tilted on its side having gone aground, then you are much stronger and nimble than most of us. OK on steady ground and while warm and dry but thats not a yacht accident scenario.

Unlike Rainbow, in 42 years I have called Mayday (on behalf of others), done a Pan Pan while crab potted, sought advice while in a position of danger due to port of refuge (Tenby) being closed due to rising storm, then been towed to Milford by RNLI as they told me it was easier than waiting on standby while we struggled for 6 hours with failing engine and eye of storm unhelpful light winds.

Admittedly the only deaths I know of (from 6 clubs) were 2 different people drowning on the moorings having fallen overboard, 1 who asphixiated himself in marina charging engine and one knocked unconscious and overboard by boom and LJ failing to inflate, and none of these would have been helped by life raft, but a friends ex fiance died in the Irish sea due foundering after hitting shipping container. All in all not nearly as dangerous as climbing where my current local club has lost 3 members killed in about 6 years

 

[ylop]

Thank you for demonstrating the point I have been making - founderings of small pleasure craft in UK waters is extremely rare

I don’t think anyone has suggested it’s a common occurrence. Ferries foundering in UK waters are also uncommon but I don’t think anyone would say “it’s ok to not bother with liferafts/boats if you just do proper maintenance and keep a proper lookout” which seemed to be what your earlier post implied?

- let alone boats like the OPs - mum, dad and 2 children in a substantial well found yacht.

I suspect not many leisure boats with a family of 4 actually for 15 miles from shore and 25 from a safe haven in a F5-6! But is part of being a well found yacht not that the skipper has a mental plan for various crisis?

One needs to keep a sense of proportion and be guided by the facts as far as they can be established, not by lurid imaginations.

We don’t actually know why the OP was asking the question. Eg he has both options already and is deciding his mental plan is probably different from he has a liferaft but is thinking of upgrading the tender to provide a “better” option which is different from he has the tender but is considering adding a liferaft because he’s going 15 miles offshore.

There are some very valuable points made in the thread about ability to launch either in those seas with potentially total loss of power etc. Let’s not lose those amongst an argument about how likely you are to ever need either.

Of course there is a legitimate question on whether if the OP wants to spend £1k + annual maintenance on a safety upgrade if a liferaft is the best use - but that wasn’t the OPs question, and we have no idea what other equipment he already has, where he actually sails etc.

 

[Sea Change]

I suspect not many leisure boats with a family of 4 actually for 15 miles from shore and 25 from a safe haven in a F5-6! But is part of being a well found yacht not that the skipper has a mental plan for various crisis?

By definition that will be unlikely in UK waters, because we just don'' have that many areas where the safe havens are 25nm apart.

But for those of us who go a bit further afield, it's not at all uncommon.

I was under the impression that this forum was a fairly wide church, and not reserved for those who coastal/weekend cruise.

 

[Stemar]

Like Paul Rainbow, I've never had a mechanical issue that stopped me getting home, never had a MOB or any other emergency worse than running out of whisky and, thankfully, such things are very rare for leisure sailors, but they do happen. It therefore behoves us, as responsible skippers, to be prepared physically and mentally for them.

I don't think there is a right answer to the original question, it depends on circumstances - weather conditions, distance from shore, availability of outside assistance, etc. The benefit of threads like this is that they get us thinking about options and, having thought about it in advance might just save someone's life one day. One thing I've got from this is the thought that it might be a good idea to keep the outboard's fuel can somewhere more accessible than where it lives now, buried in the depths of a locker, where I might not have time to grab it if it all hits the fan.